Michael is the head of Angelic armies. He is a servant of God who, in the Bible, fights demons and Satan.
This is THE LAST message that police officers need.
They do not serve God, they serve the community. They are not infallible. They are supposed to serve and protect, not wage war. They solve crimes and the people they arrest are not minions of Satan.
Police officers already see themselves as warriors, thanks to a few decades of militarization. (Thanks, Bush!) They roll out each day with the attitude that they are at war and the people they encounter are the enemy. Adding a religious dimension turns it into a holy war, and the ones who would have questioned whether or not they were enforcing the law properly would stop doubting.
I can only wonder at how stupid these people had to be to assume putting these statues up in front of a police station would be okay. Things like this do not fill me with hope for the future of our species.
My father went to his grave convinced you simply could not question anything the Catholic Church taught. Of course he never had a college credit to his name and never read a book in his life.
They are enculted and putting up these expensive statues is an act of faith and now they can claim to be being persecuted... Win - Win. But if the SJC ultimately rules against the statues, I think this mayor needs to cough up the cost out of his own pocket to make the Taxpayers of Quincy whole.
Or maybe he just doesnโt think he ever really has to answer to the public. Maybe he thinks he just has to answer to his god and his god will make sure he wins the election.
No, they don't. They deserve to be disposed of properly - sold - and the monies recovered should be returned to the city's coffers. Any shortfall between cost and sale should be taken from the mayor personally.
Makes me wonder if the architectural plans for the building include alcoves for these things. If it does, that would be a pretty clear indication that this wasn't just the mayor doing an end run around innocent council members.
Has it been said yet? That the building aligned with law enforcement is fighting having to follow the law? What other areas of the law are they unwilling to abide by? I think this particular stubbornness warrants some sort of ethics oversight of the mayor, the council, and the departments involved.
Those in charge of enforcing the law should be held to a much higher standard than anyone else, and yet we are where we are because they are more often not held to any standards.
The secrecy bothers me more than the stubbornness, honestly. There is no good reason, ever, for a local government to be doing ๐ข๐ฏ๐บ๐ต๐ฉ๐ช๐ฏ๐จ under a veil of secrecy. A national government may need to keep secrets to stay ahead of foreign adversaries who might threaten its people, but a municipal government doesn't ๐ฉ๐ข๐ท๐ฆ adversaries to protect its citizens from, and it should not be keeping secrets from the public- especially not when said secrets involve ruinous sums of taxpayer money. Transparency at that level of government should be absolute.
I ask again- if having statues was so important (it wasn't) to this new building, why not statues of police officers and firefighters who've given their lives in the line of duty? Quincy is a very old town, by this country's standards- surely they could've found at least one of each whose surviving family would sign off on the venture. It would've been a humbling reminder to public servants headquartered in the building that they must put the public they serve before themselves- that they are meant to be protectors, not overlords, and that by putting on their uniforms they agreed to the risks and sacrifices that may come with the jobs they do.
But of course, that was never the point. The point was instead to remind the ๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฃ๐ญ๐ช๐ค that their betters are watching- specifically their ๐๐ข๐ต๐ฉ๐ฐ๐ญ๐ช๐ค betters- and they'd better stay in line, or else.
I don't think any public building requires statuary, to be clear- for the above purpose, a set of portraits on the wall would do just as well. Spend the money on something sensible, like better protective equipment or a top-of-the-line new fire truck, or something (not another APC for the police, though, please). The design of public buildings, I think, should convey humility and utility. They should not loom over their surroundings with the implicit threat of force, as has been the tradition in such works, but rather should be designed to look friendly and approachable. "๐๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ'๐ด ๐ธ๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ ๐บ๐ฐ๐ถ ๐จ๐ฆ๐ต ๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ญ๐ฑ," instead of "๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ'๐ด ๐ธ๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ ๐บ๐ฐ๐ถ ๐ค๐ข๐ต๐ค๐ฉ ๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ญ๐ญ."
My city put up a statue of an old lady who became famous for giving out soup to the homeless; it looks just as sweet as she would have done in life *and* it's secular. Nowadays the person dispensing soup forces those who benefit from it to listen to her caterwauling hymns in one of the worst singing voices I ever heard. I doubt she'll be getting a statue.
Cops put In God We Trust decals on their squad cars but don't go on duty without body armor and weapons up the wazoo. What a shallow testament to their "faith."
"God definitely loves me and hates my enemies, but y'know, he's nearsighted as hell. Surprisingly often totally off-target with that whole smiting biz."
Catholic statues with a secular purpose? Gee, where have I heard THAT one before? Oh, yeah, just about every time someone tries to insert their belief system into government or some other public space. I don't know who Mayor Koch thought he was kidding with that noise, but he clearly didn't fool the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court.
They rendered a correct decision. The question now becomes whether Thomas Koch learned anything from all of this.
I doubt that Mr Koch learned anything other than Massachusetts courts won't treat his beliefs as the default. It wouldn't surprise me if he cries "persecution" and tries to move it to the federal courts, with hopes of getting the Catholic supermajority on SCOTUS to give him what he wants.
Mayor Koch learning anything from this only matters if the voters havenโt learned anything and keep him in his position. They ought to remove him from office with a recall, or just remembering this corruption in the next mayoral race. Will they? Remains to be seen, Iโm sure there are only a few that even noted the issue and fewer thatโll remember it happened when it counts. That is the flaw of our democracy and look at how thatโs worked for us so far.
Putting these things up in front of police stations/HQs just reminds people what a close relationship cops and Catholics (especially clergy) have with one another.
Its the priests who have avoided the police blotters that worry me the most. Oh, but wait - I hear the Church now reports all abuse. Perhaps someone wearing a collar and robes to work needs a confessional.
I grew up catholic in the rural deep south where my protestant neighbors believed Catholics worshipped the pope and the pope was the antichrist. I couldnโt read this without images of leopards popping up. If the mayor thinks aligning with the Christian nationalists to dishonestly declare a secular purpose to use taxpayer money for religious iconography before a government building will somehow protect him when the wall between church and state is fully destroyed โฆ ๐ฎโ๐จ
I alternate between exhaustion and fear from all the stupidity being promoted, indeed celebrated.
โThis was someone trying to embarrass us, which I donโt appreciate. The council should not be put in a position, whether by the mayorโs office or by anyone who wanted to subvert this, where we appear uninformed. Thatโs not good faith.โ
โThis was someone trying to embarrass us, which I donโt appreciate.โ How wouldit be embarassing? Why should faith becembarassing?
โThe council should not be put in a position, whether by the mayorโs office or by anyone who wanted to subvert this, where we appear uninformed.โ Either ya were informed, or ya werenโt. Appearances are not what is important here.
โThatโs not good faith.โ NONE OF THIS IS GOOD FAITH. Itโs bad faith, from the mayor on down. Or up.
But the not-good-faith is the real issue here. activities by the religious Dominionists have shown us again and again that they want their religion above all other peopleโs religions. Give them an inch, and they will want at least six, intending a reach around. And they want the government to pay for it, which means they wantโwait for it!โ other peopleโs money to pay for it, with no benefit to those other people, except to save their souls or sumpin.
If they hasnโt been behaving like a-holies the last 50 years or so, there might be a lot less concern about this. I probably wouldnโt care. we use mythological symbols all of the time in our public works. But they attempted to sneak this one past, then they โmisdirectedโ the opposition, andvthey are STILL trying to get the tax payers to pay for their perspnal religious missions.
โโIt might help them,โ he added. โThey might say a little prayer before they go out on duty.โ
If cops and firefighters need prayer to do their jobs well, perhaps the city should be investing more in their training instead of advertising for the Catholic Church.โ
Iโm sorry, but if the cops and firefighters need a statue to remind them to pray, how devout can they be? And this was just an admission that these gentlemen *cough* are intending for the departments to be fully Catholic, which is a huge problem constitutionally. These statues are direct reminders of what is expected within the community and this government safety organization. This isnโt a gentle reminder that this job is dangerous and you should be careful, it is a blatant order to pray the correct way.
There are still plenty of people who don't realize that the majority of cops see all non-cops as the enemy, no matter how harmless the person may actually be.
Demons don't exist and have never existed, and the whole point of being a police officer is to deal with or help prevent in the first place REAL crimes.
Whether they exist or not is irrelevant. Most every accused member of the public walking through the building will get the metaphor: Michael = police officer & the state, Satan = me.
The statues may not go up, but the message has already been made clear. The mayor and other officials who tried to sneak this under everyone's nose are still Catholic supremacists and will not treat people equally. They should all be removed from their positions of authority so they can be free to go work for their local church or diocese or whatever they call it.
Michael is the head of Angelic armies. He is a servant of God who, in the Bible, fights demons and Satan.
This is THE LAST message that police officers need.
They do not serve God, they serve the community. They are not infallible. They are supposed to serve and protect, not wage war. They solve crimes and the people they arrest are not minions of Satan.
Police officers already see themselves as warriors, thanks to a few decades of militarization. (Thanks, Bush!) They roll out each day with the attitude that they are at war and the people they encounter are the enemy. Adding a religious dimension turns it into a holy war, and the ones who would have questioned whether or not they were enforcing the law properly would stop doubting.
โ๐๐ต ๐ข๐ญ๐ธ๐ข๐บ๐ด ๐ฆ๐ฎ๐ฃ๐ข๐ณ๐ณ๐ข๐ด๐ด๐ฆ๐ฅ ๐๐ข๐ฎ๐ถ๐ฆ๐ญ ๐๐ช๐ฎ๐ฆ๐ด ๐ธ๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ฏ ๐ค๐ช๐ท๐ช๐ญ๐ช๐ข๐ฏ๐ด ๐ต๐ณ๐ช๐ฆ๐ฅ ๐ต๐ฐ ๐ด๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ต๐ฐ ๐ฉ๐ช๐ฎ ๐ช๐ฏ ๐ธ๐ฉ๐ข๐ต ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐บ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฐ๐ถ๐จ๐ฉ๐ต ๐ธ๐ข๐ด โ๐ฑ๐ฐ๐ญ๐ช๐ค๐ฆ๐ฎ๐ข๐ฏ.โ ๐๐ง ๐ช๐ต ๐ค๐ข๐ฎ๐ฆ ๐ต๐ฐ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ข๐ต, ๐ฉ๐ฆ ๐ฉ๐ข๐ต๐ฆ๐ฅ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ช๐ฏ๐ฌ๐ช๐ฏ๐จ ๐ฐ๐ง ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ฎ ๐ข๐ด ๐ค๐ช๐ท๐ช๐ญ๐ช๐ข๐ฏ๐ด. ๐๐ฉ๐ข๐ต ๐ธ๐ข๐ด ๐ข ๐ฑ๐ฐ๐ญ๐ช๐ค๐ฆ๐ฎ๐ข๐ฏ, ๐ช๐ง ๐ฏ๐ฐ๐ต ๐ข ๐ค๐ช๐ท๐ช๐ญ๐ช๐ข๐ฏ ๐ธ๐ช๐ต๐ฉ ๐ข ๐ถ๐ฏ๐ช๐ง๐ฐ๐ณ๐ฎ ๐ข๐ฏ๐ฅ ๐ข ๐ฃ๐ข๐ฅ๐จ๐ฆ? ๐๐ถ๐ต ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐บ ๐ต๐ฆ๐ฏ๐ฅ๐ฆ๐ฅ ๐ต๐ฐ ๐ถ๐ด๐ฆ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ ๐ต๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฎ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ด๐ฆ ๐ฅ๐ข๐บ๐ด ๐ข๐ด ๐ข ๐ธ๐ข๐บ ๐ฐ๐ง ๐ฅ๐ฆ๐ด๐ค๐ณ๐ช๐ฃ๐ช๐ฏ๐จ ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ฐ๐ฑ๐ญ๐ฆ ๐ธ๐ฉ๐ฐ ๐ธ๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ ๐ฏ๐ฐ๐ต ๐ฑ๐ฐ๐ญ๐ช๐ค๐ฆ๐ฎ๐ฆ๐ฏ. ๐๐ต ๐ธ๐ข๐ด ๐ข ๐ฅ๐ข๐ฏ๐จ๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฐ๐ถ๐ด ๐ฉ๐ข๐ฃ๐ช๐ต: ๐ฐ๐ฏ๐ค๐ฆ ๐ฑ๐ฐ๐ญ๐ช๐ค๐ฆ๐ฎ๐ฆ๐ฏ ๐ด๐ต๐ฐ๐ฑ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ฅ ๐ฃ๐ฆ๐ช๐ฏ๐จ ๐ค๐ช๐ท๐ช๐ญ๐ช๐ข๐ฏ๐ด ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ ๐ฐ๐ฏ๐ญ๐บ ๐ฐ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ณ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ช๐ฏ๐จ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐บ ๐ค๐ฐ๐ถ๐ญ๐ฅ ๐ฃ๐ฆ ๐ธ๐ข๐ด ๐ด๐ฐ๐ญ๐ฅ๐ช๐ฆ๐ณ๐ด.โ - Terry Pratchett, Snuff
I can only wonder at how stupid these people had to be to assume putting these statues up in front of a police station would be okay. Things like this do not fill me with hope for the future of our species.
Blind faith is the final sign of true stupidity. IMHO.
I thought they were a one album "supergroup" back in '69.
And on that note, I'll see if I can't find my way home. ๐
Which group, Blind Faith or True Stupidity?
Both.
Well-played, both your comment and the album
My father went to his grave convinced you simply could not question anything the Catholic Church taught. Of course he never had a college credit to his name and never read a book in his life.
They are enculted and putting up these expensive statues is an act of faith and now they can claim to be being persecuted... Win - Win. But if the SJC ultimately rules against the statues, I think this mayor needs to cough up the cost out of his own pocket to make the Taxpayers of Quincy whole.
The mayor hiding it from the public and at least some of the councilmembers is a pretty clear indication that even he knew it wasn't okay.
Or maybe he just doesnโt think he ever really has to answer to the public. Maybe he thinks he just has to answer to his god and his god will make sure he wins the election.
DJT?
Doesnโt he think he is god? Or does he think god thinks heโs the best human ever? heโs the best of godโs creation?
Find hope that there were enough legally educated people to stop it.
"These statues deserve to remain in storage."
No, they don't. They deserve to be disposed of properly - sold - and the monies recovered should be returned to the city's coffers. Any shortfall between cost and sale should be taken from the mayor personally.
I like the sound of that!
โThe bottom line doesnโt change.โ
Except for the extra $850,000 dollars that won't be going to fix roads or fund schools.
Makes me wonder if the architectural plans for the building include alcoves for these things. If it does, that would be a pretty clear indication that this wasn't just the mayor doing an end run around innocent council members.
What puts me at ease?
A. St. Michael stomping on a horned demon
B. The police
C. Catholics
D. None of the above
E. None of the above, but instead going on a peaceful walk in nature where thereโs no Christians around.
The answer is obviously E. And most of us here would join you.
You are most welcome ๐ค
Has it been said yet? That the building aligned with law enforcement is fighting having to follow the law? What other areas of the law are they unwilling to abide by? I think this particular stubbornness warrants some sort of ethics oversight of the mayor, the council, and the departments involved.
Those in charge of enforcing the law should be held to a much higher standard than anyone else, and yet we are where we are because they are more often not held to any standards.
The secrecy bothers me more than the stubbornness, honestly. There is no good reason, ever, for a local government to be doing ๐ข๐ฏ๐บ๐ต๐ฉ๐ช๐ฏ๐จ under a veil of secrecy. A national government may need to keep secrets to stay ahead of foreign adversaries who might threaten its people, but a municipal government doesn't ๐ฉ๐ข๐ท๐ฆ adversaries to protect its citizens from, and it should not be keeping secrets from the public- especially not when said secrets involve ruinous sums of taxpayer money. Transparency at that level of government should be absolute.
I ask again- if having statues was so important (it wasn't) to this new building, why not statues of police officers and firefighters who've given their lives in the line of duty? Quincy is a very old town, by this country's standards- surely they could've found at least one of each whose surviving family would sign off on the venture. It would've been a humbling reminder to public servants headquartered in the building that they must put the public they serve before themselves- that they are meant to be protectors, not overlords, and that by putting on their uniforms they agreed to the risks and sacrifices that may come with the jobs they do.
But of course, that was never the point. The point was instead to remind the ๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฃ๐ญ๐ช๐ค that their betters are watching- specifically their ๐๐ข๐ต๐ฉ๐ฐ๐ญ๐ช๐ค betters- and they'd better stay in line, or else.
I don't think any public building requires statuary, to be clear- for the above purpose, a set of portraits on the wall would do just as well. Spend the money on something sensible, like better protective equipment or a top-of-the-line new fire truck, or something (not another APC for the police, though, please). The design of public buildings, I think, should convey humility and utility. They should not loom over their surroundings with the implicit threat of force, as has been the tradition in such works, but rather should be designed to look friendly and approachable. "๐๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ'๐ด ๐ธ๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ ๐บ๐ฐ๐ถ ๐จ๐ฆ๐ต ๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ญ๐ฑ," instead of "๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ'๐ด ๐ธ๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ ๐บ๐ฐ๐ถ ๐ค๐ข๐ต๐ค๐ฉ ๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ญ๐ญ."
My city put up a statue of an old lady who became famous for giving out soup to the homeless; it looks just as sweet as she would have done in life *and* it's secular. Nowadays the person dispensing soup forces those who benefit from it to listen to her caterwauling hymns in one of the worst singing voices I ever heard. I doubt she'll be getting a statue.
Can I vote for you for something? Anything!
Cops put In God We Trust decals on their squad cars but don't go on duty without body armor and weapons up the wazoo. What a shallow testament to their "faith."
"God definitely loves me and hates my enemies, but y'know, he's nearsighted as hell. Surprisingly often totally off-target with that whole smiting biz."
A perfect being with astigmatism.
The age-old philosophical question - could god create a diopter so strong he couldn't see through it?
No, but if He puts it out for bid I'm fairly certain Honeywell could do it.
"God helps those that help themselves"?
Found absolutely nowhere in the Unholy BuyBull.
Catholic statues with a secular purpose? Gee, where have I heard THAT one before? Oh, yeah, just about every time someone tries to insert their belief system into government or some other public space. I don't know who Mayor Koch thought he was kidding with that noise, but he clearly didn't fool the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court.
They rendered a correct decision. The question now becomes whether Thomas Koch learned anything from all of this.
I doubt that Mr Koch learned anything other than Massachusetts courts won't treat his beliefs as the default. It wouldn't surprise me if he cries "persecution" and tries to move it to the federal courts, with hopes of getting the Catholic supermajority on SCOTUS to give him what he wants.
Entirely too likely. ๐
Mayor Koch learning anything from this only matters if the voters havenโt learned anything and keep him in his position. They ought to remove him from office with a recall, or just remembering this corruption in the next mayoral race. Will they? Remains to be seen, Iโm sure there are only a few that even noted the issue and fewer thatโll remember it happened when it counts. That is the flaw of our democracy and look at how thatโs worked for us so far.
His big takeaway: "๐ ๐ด๐ฉ๐ฐ๐ถ๐ญ๐ฅ ๐ฃ๐ฆ ๐ด๐ฏ๐ฆ๐ข๐ฌ๐ช๐ฆ๐ณ ๐ฏ๐ฆ๐น๐ต ๐ต๐ช๐ฎ๐ฆ."
HA! Lots of luck with THAT, Tommy!
Putting these things up in front of police stations/HQs just reminds people what a close relationship cops and Catholics (especially clergy) have with one another.
ESPECIALLY in Boston. I still remember Spotlight all too well.
People always need to be reminded how often Catholics wind up in police blotters for their...private activities.
Its the priests who have avoided the police blotters that worry me the most. Oh, but wait - I hear the Church now reports all abuse. Perhaps someone wearing a collar and robes to work needs a confessional.
I grew up catholic in the rural deep south where my protestant neighbors believed Catholics worshipped the pope and the pope was the antichrist. I couldnโt read this without images of leopards popping up. If the mayor thinks aligning with the Christian nationalists to dishonestly declare a secular purpose to use taxpayer money for religious iconography before a government building will somehow protect him when the wall between church and state is fully destroyed โฆ ๐ฎโ๐จ
I alternate between exhaustion and fear from all the stupidity being promoted, indeed celebrated.
Did they tell you you weren't really Christian because you worshipped a dead god? I was told this when I was 12. By the MAILMAN.
Not awake yet. This still stood out.
โThis was someone trying to embarrass us, which I donโt appreciate. The council should not be put in a position, whether by the mayorโs office or by anyone who wanted to subvert this, where we appear uninformed. Thatโs not good faith.โ
โThis was someone trying to embarrass us, which I donโt appreciate.โ How wouldit be embarassing? Why should faith becembarassing?
โThe council should not be put in a position, whether by the mayorโs office or by anyone who wanted to subvert this, where we appear uninformed.โ Either ya were informed, or ya werenโt. Appearances are not what is important here.
โThatโs not good faith.โ NONE OF THIS IS GOOD FAITH. Itโs bad faith, from the mayor on down. Or up.
But the not-good-faith is the real issue here. activities by the religious Dominionists have shown us again and again that they want their religion above all other peopleโs religions. Give them an inch, and they will want at least six, intending a reach around. And they want the government to pay for it, which means they wantโwait for it!โ other peopleโs money to pay for it, with no benefit to those other people, except to save their souls or sumpin.
If they hasnโt been behaving like a-holies the last 50 years or so, there might be a lot less concern about this. I probably wouldnโt care. we use mythological symbols all of the time in our public works. But they attempted to sneak this one past, then they โmisdirectedโ the opposition, andvthey are STILL trying to get the tax payers to pay for their perspnal religious missions.
Nope.
"Either ya were informed, or ya werenโt."
My guess is the mayor informed the council members who he trusted to go along with it, but neither he nor they informed the rest. So..."both."
Good guess.
โโIt might help them,โ he added. โThey might say a little prayer before they go out on duty.โ
If cops and firefighters need prayer to do their jobs well, perhaps the city should be investing more in their training instead of advertising for the Catholic Church.โ
Iโm sorry, but if the cops and firefighters need a statue to remind them to pray, how devout can they be? And this was just an admission that these gentlemen *cough* are intending for the departments to be fully Catholic, which is a huge problem constitutionally. These statues are direct reminders of what is expected within the community and this government safety organization. This isnโt a gentle reminder that this job is dangerous and you should be careful, it is a blatant order to pray the correct way.
"Oh Lord, as I go out on patrol today, please give me the chance to stomp down on someone's neck like that."
There are still plenty of people who don't realize that the majority of cops see all non-cops as the enemy, no matter how harmless the person may actually be.
Demons don't exist and have never existed, and the whole point of being a police officer is to deal with or help prevent in the first place REAL crimes.
Whether they exist or not is irrelevant. Most every accused member of the public walking through the building will get the metaphor: Michael = police officer & the state, Satan = me.
The tiny demons inside me are all given background processes to manage, keeps 'em occupied and (mostly) out of trouble.
https://youtu.be/ovY_hGsQ7Gs?is=Wh2RuWa9MN1AIkfg
The statues may not go up, but the message has already been made clear. The mayor and other officials who tried to sneak this under everyone's nose are still Catholic supremacists and will not treat people equally. They should all be removed from their positions of authority so they can be free to go work for their local church or diocese or whatever they call it.
"Neither statue carries strictly religious messages, Koch said, stressing instead their representation of bravery, courage and service."
Saints are religious figures, representing xtianity despite this outright lie.