To listen to the evangelicals who see their faith as the solution to all the world's problems, our prisons should be over-flowing with atheists. As the article alluded to, these numbers are questionable. I took a law class taught by a district judge working as adjunct faculty. (He said it was putting his son through Arizona State.) At any rate he had considerable experience with convicts both as a judge and a former prosecutor. He said the first thing most of these people do when they get locked up is get born again, so they can try to manipulate the system. I think he knew what he was talking about.
Those who get "born again" when they get locked up are likely to be mostly theists anyway, so the argument the religious will have that prisoners are all really atheists kind of falls flat.
“Handing prisoners a Bible will not make them better people. Requiring them to meet with religious chaplains, or listen to visiting ministers, or participate in Bible studies when they don’t actually believe any of that won’t make them better people.
The path to redemption does not necessarily go through God. As Freedom From Religion Foundation attorney Chris Line told me, these numbers suggest that “Despite persistent stereotypes, nonbelievers overwhelmingly live ethical, law-abiding lives. This data underscores that morality doesn’t come from religion—it comes from empathy, reason, and our shared humanity.””
I would argue that it’s more likely religion would make people less ethical. Once one is convinced their God wants something, they can be persuaded, or even just think of it on their own, to commit some truly heinous acts. Not just using god to make excuses for their bad behaviors, but real justifications for committing atrocities. Steven Anderson is convinced that god hates LGBTQ people, he’s willing to pressure the government into genocide of them. Or maybe it’s more his followers are convinced by him that god hates them and they act out by murdering LGBTQ people. Or both. The Pulse shooter was convinced by someone. That’s only one example. Hitler used religion to motivate Germany into support of his ethnic cleansing. Isis too. Forced Birthers are all convinced that god is on their side and the death of thousands of pregnant people are just the cost of saving babies.
And because they are convinced that it is god’s will, there’s no talking them out of it. (Okay, maybe not none, but very little chance to change their minds)
Add in the fact that Christianity teaches obedience as the mark of morality, there really is no ethics in religion.
Hating others is gawd's "morality." Superstitions teach everyone is a sinner. As sinners, god decrees the deserve NO help. This is the kkkristerism behind today GQP. ALL HATE ALL THE TIME.
I expect the comeback will be around, "Saying you're born again looks good at parole hearings." In which case the problem is assuming "religious = moral".
These fine folks see prison as just another opportunity to indoctrinate desperate people in terrible situations. It’s abuse, period. I personally know non-religious people who attended “church” while in prison as it was the ONLY opportunity/reason one was allowed to leave their cell. Obviously they are going to take it for the change of scenery at bare minimum.
Even if they don’t convert for perks or other reasons, there is an association made later with who was “kind” to them during perhaps the worst period of their life understandably.
"For the sake of comparison, Protestants (of all stripes) represent about 39% of America, but only 17.3% of federal prisoners.
Catholics are 19% of the population, but 12.5% of federal inmates.
Muslims are 1% of the population, but 9.6% of those inmates."
How did Muslims get so over-represented? Are they more likely to commit crimes? Or more likely to get arrested, found guilty, and given jail time for the same offense that a non-Muslim (maybe not so brown) person would not?
A significant portion of American Muslims are black so I'd wager the forces leading to mass incarceration of black men (poverty, racism, etc) play a significant role. NOI also does a lot of prison outreach iirc.
Interesting data. What we CAN say based on these figures is that being religious doesn't make people less likely to commit crimes, and being non-religious doesn't make people more likely to commit crimes. At the very least, I'd say there are implications here for the rationale of placing ten commandments posters and/or monuments in schools and other public buildings. Clearly, religion is ineffectual in preventing crime.
Christian evangelists target and prey on the vulnerable. They convert people while they're in prison. I know people who were abused as children, and then they end up in these rightwing Christian religions that just replace personal abuse with religious abuse. Where better to find traumatized people [or predators, which Christians also love] than in prisons. If you read Elaine Pagels's the Origin of Satan, you'll see that preying on the ignorant and vulnerable has been a Christian strategy since Theodosius, but it's particularly heinous, imo, to go after traumatized people with fake promises of Jesus. Of course people in prison want to feel that some entity loves them unconditionally and forgives them. Many of them never realize that the love and forgiveness come with strings and chains attached. And then there are the predators who use "forgiveness" to be welcomed into new churches, where they can prey and get away with it.
Time? Newsweek? stated several years ago the kkkatliker "church/pedo ring" had spent north of $4 BILLION defending child raping priests. LA diocese recently paid out $800+ Milli0on to settle abuse suits. This on top of $80 million a few years ago.. mVERY deep pockets
Too bad Jeebus can't do more than forgive. If he could commute sentences then everybody would become a Christian. Trump's massive pardons are coming close. And now they're worshipping the church of Trump.
The one thing this article doesn't mention is the number of in-prison conversions which may occur, particularly due to the attendant privileges which go along with being a member of the incarcerated Christian community. Let's be real: getting you some Jeezus comes with perks in a LOT of penal institutions, and that can make one's stay in the hoosegow a LOT more tolerable.
But still there's that miniscule 0.07% that aren't having any. Do THEY know something the christers don't? 😁
I was thinking about in prison conversions too. Maybe learning a new “trade” to grift off of after you get out? There is certainly plenty of role models to go around.
The hidden variable here is poverty and education. I wouldn’t make any other inferences until we account for that and the racial biases in American incarceration system.
The question in my mind is ..why do they even ask? A government prison should be religion neutral. They should neither know nor care. Do the crime, do the time.
A LOT of things "should be." Problem is that a considerable number of the prison administration are likely to be Christians, and some of them insecure enough to want to spread their noise to EVERYONE around them.
Throw in Christian Privilege and you have the environment in too many prisons these days.
That's because ICE has been busy plucking illegal aliens from the streets to arrest them.
When that job is finished their next priority will be atheists.
When ICE ask you to show your papers you'd better carry a recent document from your priest/pastor proving that you regularly attend weekly services, and that you are not late with your tithe payements.
They have been going to workplaces and grabbing them. They will never go after gangs as they are ared and know ow to use weapons. They tried to go to LA Dodgers to grab workers at concession stands. This is white supremacists demonizing decent people. A common trick of fascist wannabes.
Yet Christians who make up the vast majority of inmates in US prisons still call atheists the immoral ones.
"You have no reason to be moral if God isn't watching!" Um, I don't like seeing people suffer. That's a pretty good basis for morality.
But if you're only being moral because 'god' is watching, are you really moral? Or are you just waiting for Sky Daddy to turn his back?
psycho on a oleash
To listen to the evangelicals who see their faith as the solution to all the world's problems, our prisons should be over-flowing with atheists. As the article alluded to, these numbers are questionable. I took a law class taught by a district judge working as adjunct faculty. (He said it was putting his son through Arizona State.) At any rate he had considerable experience with convicts both as a judge and a former prosecutor. He said the first thing most of these people do when they get locked up is get born again, so they can try to manipulate the system. I think he knew what he was talking about.
Those who get "born again" when they get locked up are likely to be mostly theists anyway, so the argument the religious will have that prisoners are all really atheists kind of falls flat.
Indeed. History is quite clear on the fact religion does not equal morality.
this is morality?
https://apnews.com/article/988-lgbtq-suicide-prevention-hotline-trump-382342828b381b6a32964f09fe9aa59c
As far from it as it gets. It stands as an example of what can be justified in the name of religion.
“Handing prisoners a Bible will not make them better people. Requiring them to meet with religious chaplains, or listen to visiting ministers, or participate in Bible studies when they don’t actually believe any of that won’t make them better people.
The path to redemption does not necessarily go through God. As Freedom From Religion Foundation attorney Chris Line told me, these numbers suggest that “Despite persistent stereotypes, nonbelievers overwhelmingly live ethical, law-abiding lives. This data underscores that morality doesn’t come from religion—it comes from empathy, reason, and our shared humanity.””
I would argue that it’s more likely religion would make people less ethical. Once one is convinced their God wants something, they can be persuaded, or even just think of it on their own, to commit some truly heinous acts. Not just using god to make excuses for their bad behaviors, but real justifications for committing atrocities. Steven Anderson is convinced that god hates LGBTQ people, he’s willing to pressure the government into genocide of them. Or maybe it’s more his followers are convinced by him that god hates them and they act out by murdering LGBTQ people. Or both. The Pulse shooter was convinced by someone. That’s only one example. Hitler used religion to motivate Germany into support of his ethnic cleansing. Isis too. Forced Birthers are all convinced that god is on their side and the death of thousands of pregnant people are just the cost of saving babies.
And because they are convinced that it is god’s will, there’s no talking them out of it. (Okay, maybe not none, but very little chance to change their minds)
Add in the fact that Christianity teaches obedience as the mark of morality, there really is no ethics in religion.
And just because I think it's somewhat related, I gotta throw this out:
𝐼𝑓 𝑖𝑡 𝑡𝑎𝑘𝑒𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑟𝑒𝑎𝑡 𝑜𝑓 ℎ𝑒𝑙𝑙 𝑡𝑜 𝑚𝑎𝑘𝑒 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑎 𝑚𝑜𝑟𝑎𝑙 𝑝𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑜𝑛, 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑎𝑟𝑒 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑎𝑡 𝑎𝑙𝑙 𝑚𝑜𝑟𝑎𝑙, 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑎𝑟𝑒 𝑗𝑢𝑠𝑡 𝑎 𝑐𝑜𝑤𝑎𝑟𝑑 𝑤ℎ𝑜 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑑𝑠 𝑤𝑒𝑙𝑙 𝑡𝑜 𝑡ℎ𝑟𝑒𝑎𝑡𝑠.
-- Leo Wolf
"If you need the threat of divine punishment to make you moral, then you're basically a psychopath on a leash."
I agree. Plus Christianity is so good at protecting predators.
Yes, and that’s an entirely different rant.
As of several years ago the podochurch had spen $4 BILLION defending felon rapist
Hating others is gawd's "morality." Superstitions teach everyone is a sinner. As sinners, god decrees the deserve NO help. This is the kkkristerism behind today GQP. ALL HATE ALL THE TIME.
I expect the comeback will be around, "Saying you're born again looks good at parole hearings." In which case the problem is assuming "religious = moral".
These fine folks see prison as just another opportunity to indoctrinate desperate people in terrible situations. It’s abuse, period. I personally know non-religious people who attended “church” while in prison as it was the ONLY opportunity/reason one was allowed to leave their cell. Obviously they are going to take it for the change of scenery at bare minimum.
Of course they see it as an opportunity. The inmates are a literal captive audience!
🤣 LITERALLY
Even if they don’t convert for perks or other reasons, there is an association made later with who was “kind” to them during perhaps the worst period of their life understandably.
"For the sake of comparison, Protestants (of all stripes) represent about 39% of America, but only 17.3% of federal prisoners.
Catholics are 19% of the population, but 12.5% of federal inmates.
Muslims are 1% of the population, but 9.6% of those inmates."
How did Muslims get so over-represented? Are they more likely to commit crimes? Or more likely to get arrested, found guilty, and given jail time for the same offense that a non-Muslim (maybe not so brown) person would not?
A significant portion of American Muslims are black so I'd wager the forces leading to mass incarceration of black men (poverty, racism, etc) play a significant role. NOI also does a lot of prison outreach iirc.
For the average biblebeltian jury member, being muslim is a crime.
Interesting data. What we CAN say based on these figures is that being religious doesn't make people less likely to commit crimes, and being non-religious doesn't make people more likely to commit crimes. At the very least, I'd say there are implications here for the rationale of placing ten commandments posters and/or monuments in schools and other public buildings. Clearly, religion is ineffectual in preventing crime.
I’m sure if I was a little bit more awake, I could make a very good comparison of prisons and churches.
You find very few atheists in both.
[michel foucault has entered the chat]
I would bet the percentage is higher in church.
Christian evangelists target and prey on the vulnerable. They convert people while they're in prison. I know people who were abused as children, and then they end up in these rightwing Christian religions that just replace personal abuse with religious abuse. Where better to find traumatized people [or predators, which Christians also love] than in prisons. If you read Elaine Pagels's the Origin of Satan, you'll see that preying on the ignorant and vulnerable has been a Christian strategy since Theodosius, but it's particularly heinous, imo, to go after traumatized people with fake promises of Jesus. Of course people in prison want to feel that some entity loves them unconditionally and forgives them. Many of them never realize that the love and forgiveness come with strings and chains attached. And then there are the predators who use "forgiveness" to be welcomed into new churches, where they can prey and get away with it.
Time? Newsweek? stated several years ago the kkkatliker "church/pedo ring" had spent north of $4 BILLION defending child raping priests. LA diocese recently paid out $800+ Milli0on to settle abuse suits. This on top of $80 million a few years ago.. mVERY deep pockets
gee, fewer intelligent,rational thinkers in jail.
who would've thought?
Too bad Jeebus can't do more than forgive. If he could commute sentences then everybody would become a Christian. Trump's massive pardons are coming close. And now they're worshipping the church of Trump.
The one thing this article doesn't mention is the number of in-prison conversions which may occur, particularly due to the attendant privileges which go along with being a member of the incarcerated Christian community. Let's be real: getting you some Jeezus comes with perks in a LOT of penal institutions, and that can make one's stay in the hoosegow a LOT more tolerable.
But still there's that miniscule 0.07% that aren't having any. Do THEY know something the christers don't? 😁
I was thinking about in prison conversions too. Maybe learning a new “trade” to grift off of after you get out? There is certainly plenty of role models to go around.
The hidden variable here is poverty and education. I wouldn’t make any other inferences until we account for that and the racial biases in American incarceration system.
This does tend to prove that gawd and trump love them ignorant and uneducated.
+1000
The question in my mind is ..why do they even ask? A government prison should be religion neutral. They should neither know nor care. Do the crime, do the time.
A LOT of things "should be." Problem is that a considerable number of the prison administration are likely to be Christians, and some of them insecure enough to want to spread their noise to EVERYONE around them.
Throw in Christian Privilege and you have the environment in too many prisons these days.
"𝑎𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑠 𝑚𝑎𝑘𝑒 𝑢𝑝 𝑎 𝑚𝑒𝑟𝑒 0.073% 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑓𝑒𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑎𝑙 𝑝𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑜𝑛 𝑝𝑜𝑝𝑢𝑙𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛"
That's because ICE has been busy plucking illegal aliens from the streets to arrest them.
When that job is finished their next priority will be atheists.
When ICE ask you to show your papers you'd better carry a recent document from your priest/pastor proving that you regularly attend weekly services, and that you are not late with your tithe payements.
They have been going to workplaces and grabbing them. They will never go after gangs as they are ared and know ow to use weapons. They tried to go to LA Dodgers to grab workers at concession stands. This is white supremacists demonizing decent people. A common trick of fascist wannabes.
If christians didn't volunteer to go to jail, prison chaplains would be without work.
Notice it's the Christians that need counseling and not the atheists. Why, it might lead to someone questioning the value of Christinity.
They would find another flock to fleece.