There is two definitions. The modern one is a regular person following a monastery or convent rules without taking the oaths.
The interesting one is the historical one. It was children offered to a monastery/convent by their parents who'd have to become monks or nuns wether they want it nor not.
Ok. I have enough. From now I will block you. How dare you post this insulting and vulgar thing called maths to answer one of my comments ? I know you are a prankster but there should be limits !
If xtians are the purveyors of ultimate morality, the we should see a mass exodus from the AoG.
Bet we don't. Those who still attend services are just as guilty as those who physically committed the abuse. The devout are aiding and abetting criminals.
As long as people are afraid of death and terrified of hell, these snake-oil peddlers will continue to do a thriving business of separating marks from their money.
This particular denomination does not do snake handing, but they do speak in tongues. They claim that the Holy Spirit fills them and allows them to be able to do it. As an atheist and former Pentecostal with that denomination, I now know that it's nonsense, and I can still do it knowing what it really is.
If there is an upside to stories like this it is that, at long last, the clergy's victims are being listened to. Sexual predators were allowed to hide behind their Bibles and clerical collars for far too long.
I’m up very early this morning, and this is what greets me. God-I-don’t-believe-in help me, but I have a lot to say.
First and foremost, before anything else, one thing that we absolutely know about the sexual abuse of children, like most other sex offenses, is that it is vastly under-reported. 200 pastors over 50 years? I don’t buy that for a moment. I would want to know what gets designated as a pastor, as opposed to professional Christian, as opposed to professional teacher in a christian school, as opposed to the music minister who isn’t a pastor, as opposed to the pastor’s brother who helps out in the church with the kids.
And you can tell also that if their attitude was 30 years ago, “let’s not talk about it and it’ll go away “, or “make sure the pastor apologizes to the ceiling for his faithlessness, adulterous thoughts, fornication thoughts, perverted thoughts, and besides, victim she or victim he was 16 or 17 years old so it almost doesn’t even count”, there’s a lot more going on here.
I have been informally studying this subject for nearly 50 years, and I’m absolutely certain that there’s a lot more going on here. Although the terminology is old, nearly 50 years ago there was a distinction made between people who were “fixed pedophiles” – people who were definitely oriented towards children, and “regressed pedophiles”— people whose orientation may have been primarily towards adults, but situationally found themselves to build abusing kids. But the thing is, the age of those kids. I have a suspicion that a lot of regressed pedophiles were picking on adolescence and teenagers.
That doesn’t make it better, it just doesn’t make them as disgusting.
For the last few years, when I ever come up with yet another child molesting pastor, music minister, youth minister, pastor adjacent person, or professional/political Christian, I have written to the authors of that article urging them to do exactly what NBC has done. But as a gay man, I have a little extra twist on the subject.
This is the story, far more than the sexual abuse of kids by men of God. For decades, for all of my adult life, I have been listening to the religious right accused gay people, especially gay men of being sexual predators, dangerous to children, child molesters. I’ve been listening to this garbage for nearly 60 years, because I’m that fucking old. If you Google the subject, you will find every year that there are a few gay men and occasional lesbians who have been arrested, or convicted, or sentenced for crimes against children. But if you Google pastors plus sexual abuse, or Catholic priests plus sexual abuse, you will get literally hundreds of thousands of hits.
Every single goddamn year.
The Boy Scouts were no different. I worked for them 50 years ago, but I only lasted a few months because of the unrelenting homophobia everywhere. I didn’t want to get caught up in any scandal simply because I was a gay man. I had no interest in kids, even teenagers. For decades, the scouts have a problem with sexual abuse, which for decades they tried to blame on gay men, and for decades they covered it up and shifted scoutmasters around and did everything that the Catholic Church did. But the thing was, openly gay men and boys were not allowed in the scouts. So who was doing the molesting? Men who were considered by the scouts, their communities, their families, their wives, and above all, themselves TO BE HETEROSEXUAL. Most likely regressed pedophiles, every single one of them.
Not gay. Just opportunists. Do you know why youth pastors molest kids? Because the youth ministry is where the kids are.
This is the story. The very people who are the guardians of morality youth, innocence, and purity were the ones doing the molesting. They were the ones doing the coverups. They were the ones accusing gay people are doing what we gay people are not doing. They are the ones shouting from their steeple tops that gay people are a danger, drag queens are a danger, transgender people are a danger. They were molesting, lying, slandering, revising, abusing, covering up, lying lying lying lying lying. Again and again and again.
Can you say projection? I certainly can.
And they are still doing it. And they’re still getting away with it. And almost as bad as what they are doing, is the fact that what they are doing is allowing the problem of the sexual abuse of children to continue by constantly pointing fingers at other people.
This is why any and all investigatons into charges of child molestation by clergy and others need to be taken out of the hands of the offending church and placed where they rightly belong: in the hands of the civil authorities. Churches have routinely shown they aren't up to task. Stop placing foxes in front of the henhouses. It never ends well.
Because children who are almost adults don't count as children. After all, they are fully capable of pushing babies out the hoohaw. And committing the crime before finding Jesus certainly doesn't count, since finding Jesus always makes a person incapable of such a crime. Nevermind the fact that when they let sex offenders out of prison, they aren't allowed to be teachers if they found Jesus. It's not the same thing at all, it's only a position of trust and authority over children.
Conviction of a sex crime should bar anyone from ministerial credentials. Credible accusations should bar anyone from ministerial credentials. Why can't they understand this simple thing that would protect children? Indoctrination is one hell of a drug.
This is the denomination of Swaggert and Bakker. They have had public sex scandals since the 80s. They should be able to figure this out.
"Ministers need to be BANNED?" How about: "Ministers need to be ARRESTED and INDICTED!" This business of forgiveness being equivalent to a pardon needs to STOP NOW.
Forgiveness is NOT a "get out of jail free" card. Even the Bible mentions about God, through people, punishing those who feign repentance just to seek "forgiveness" only to go back to their sinful ways once the "pardon" has been given.
Problem is that not only is forgiveness treated as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, it is too often employed in lieu of actual criminal PUNISHMENT. Personally, I'm sick and tired of reading about offending priests / pastors / ministers / whatever, doing the Jimmy Swaggart routine, and then as you say, going right back to what they were doing.
"In interviews with NBC News, they described being molested in a church van. Stalked in a church nursery. Raped with a statue of Jesus plucked from a mantle. Told to repent."
The problem with all conservative church institutions is authoritarianism.
Authoritarian systems will ALWAYS lead to abuse. You cannot trust people with the sort of power pastors or priests have. You have to have independent oversight and zero tolerance policies when it comes to abusers.
You cannot trust institutions to police themselves. They will always, always, ALWAYS focus on what is best for the organization.
Any authoritarian institution will be rife with abuse and abusers. It is the perfect hunting ground for them. People within the organization are conditioned for obedience and respect to authority above all else.
Yet another reason separation of church and state is essential. The State being the institution to keep the churches accountable.
“It’s clear that the denomination is more concerned about its bottom line than the people who make up their congregations.”
That’s all denominations of all religions, some make it more obvious than others. But it was clearly demonstrated by the recent contretemps resulting from the woman calling around for baby formula. While some were happy to give freely, most were more concerned about her status in their church and how well she contributes rather than the actual need of the baby. Those that did give, could prove me wrong, but dig deeper and they probably won’t. But I am cynical.
They don't do background checks. That says all I need to know: so desperate they don't care who the fuck has positions of authority just as long as they stay afloat. And I have heard that some states are pushing back on Catholic priests as mandatory reporters: the sanctity of the confessional is more important than the safety of a child's life.
"They avoided doing thorough background checks or reporting their own to local law enforcement, fearing it would expose them to legal liability and go against the biblical idea of forgiveness."
The concept of christian forgiveness is based on the principle on sincere repentance from the culprit/sinner. How is it possible that I know that and not them ? Not counting the christian denominations that worked hand in hand with the justice system to enforce sentences while giving spiritual pardons.
"have taken some steps to decrease the problem (while actively pushing back against more serious steps)"
Typical christian PR, it may as well be called a tradition.
"As if she was the problem rather than the alleged abuser."
Of course she was. She has a vagina ! A vagina !!!
"[The survivor] offered a simple first step: “Stop giving the lawyers a vote.”
I would say giving the lawyers a vote is only part of the problem. They saw how well hiding their heads in their asses worked for other christian sects, and yet, not only they are doing the same exact thing, but they are doubling down.
"How is it possible that I know that and not them ?"
They know. They just have a much lower bar for determining what "sincerely repentance" is. This is the denomination of Jimmy Swaggert, the type specimen for the Public Apology to the Ceiling.
Gotta do background checks. Mandatory. Not maybe. These people who prey on children can't be around children. There's no maybe about children's safety. Every Catholic church in Boston does background checks on parishioners. They did a CORI on me and all I did was lector and be a Eucharist minister. Nothing privately with children. Even though 99 times out of 100 it's the priests. Unfortunately there was one guy who went to my church I was an aquaitence of his and he did prey on the choir boys at my church. But he had money and they gave him the Chevrus award one year. Thank goodness he is dead now and rotting in Hell. But all three of the priests did his funeral.
Honestly, I'm beginning to think that, the harder they thump their bibles, the more skeletons they have in their closets. Worse, they make unfounded assertions that they will control those pastors who act out, then proceed to do NOTHING.
So we have Catholic priests, Seventh-Day leaders, Baptist and other evangelical preachers and now, representatives of the Assembly of God, with leaders of their respective churches ABUSING CHILDREN.
I want to know just WHEN local, state, and federal law enforcement is going to recognize that a priest's collar is not the guarantor of decent behavior and too often quite the opposite.
“They avoided doing thorough background checks or reporting their own to local law enforcement, fearing it would expose them to legal liability and go against the biblical idea of forgiveness.”
How’s that working out for them? It in fact gives them even more culpability in the problems that they created, by not trying to avoid problematic people and not holding them accountable when they are accused.
The more they try to ignore the problem the more they’re causing it and responsible for it continuing.
Not a single drag queen involved. No LGBTQs, either.
Why, you'd think that child grooming was an exclusively xtian practice.
Exactly! Thank you NOGODZ20
You were raised catholic, right ?
Have you ever heard of the word "oblate" ?
I thought you were going to talk about football and its oblate spheroid.
I have, but neither my parents nor the church ever really described it to us and I'd already stopped believing.
There is two definitions. The modern one is a regular person following a monastery or convent rules without taking the oaths.
The interesting one is the historical one. It was children offered to a monastery/convent by their parents who'd have to become monks or nuns wether they want it nor not.
Yep. Oblate is Latin for "one offered up."
There's actually a third, completely secular definition. In geometry, oblate is "(of a spheroid) flattened at the poles." :)
Ok. I have enough. From now I will block you. How dare you post this insulting and vulgar thing called maths to answer one of my comments ? I know you are a prankster but there should be limits !
Hee hee! I a deviwish wittle wascal. :D
The historical definition shows that the religion never could stand on its own. It needs starvation, it needs force, it needs suppression!
If xtians are the purveyors of ultimate morality, the we should see a mass exodus from the AoG.
Bet we don't. Those who still attend services are just as guilty as those who physically committed the abuse. The devout are aiding and abetting criminals.
As long as people are afraid of death and terrified of hell, these snake-oil peddlers will continue to do a thriving business of separating marks from their money.
It is just about that simple.
YES! Anyone who still attends those churches are guilty of abetting child sexual abuse.
This is the 'speaking in tongues' and snake handlers crowd . These are not people used to thinking.
This particular denomination does not do snake handing, but they do speak in tongues. They claim that the Holy Spirit fills them and allows them to be able to do it. As an atheist and former Pentecostal with that denomination, I now know that it's nonsense, and I can still do it knowing what it really is.
Ass of God. Or Asses of God?
Asshats of God.
Asses of God works just fine.
If there is an upside to stories like this it is that, at long last, the clergy's victims are being listened to. Sexual predators were allowed to hide behind their Bibles and clerical collars for far too long.
I’m up very early this morning, and this is what greets me. God-I-don’t-believe-in help me, but I have a lot to say.
First and foremost, before anything else, one thing that we absolutely know about the sexual abuse of children, like most other sex offenses, is that it is vastly under-reported. 200 pastors over 50 years? I don’t buy that for a moment. I would want to know what gets designated as a pastor, as opposed to professional Christian, as opposed to professional teacher in a christian school, as opposed to the music minister who isn’t a pastor, as opposed to the pastor’s brother who helps out in the church with the kids.
And you can tell also that if their attitude was 30 years ago, “let’s not talk about it and it’ll go away “, or “make sure the pastor apologizes to the ceiling for his faithlessness, adulterous thoughts, fornication thoughts, perverted thoughts, and besides, victim she or victim he was 16 or 17 years old so it almost doesn’t even count”, there’s a lot more going on here.
I have been informally studying this subject for nearly 50 years, and I’m absolutely certain that there’s a lot more going on here. Although the terminology is old, nearly 50 years ago there was a distinction made between people who were “fixed pedophiles” – people who were definitely oriented towards children, and “regressed pedophiles”— people whose orientation may have been primarily towards adults, but situationally found themselves to build abusing kids. But the thing is, the age of those kids. I have a suspicion that a lot of regressed pedophiles were picking on adolescence and teenagers.
That doesn’t make it better, it just doesn’t make them as disgusting.
For the last few years, when I ever come up with yet another child molesting pastor, music minister, youth minister, pastor adjacent person, or professional/political Christian, I have written to the authors of that article urging them to do exactly what NBC has done. But as a gay man, I have a little extra twist on the subject.
This is the story, far more than the sexual abuse of kids by men of God. For decades, for all of my adult life, I have been listening to the religious right accused gay people, especially gay men of being sexual predators, dangerous to children, child molesters. I’ve been listening to this garbage for nearly 60 years, because I’m that fucking old. If you Google the subject, you will find every year that there are a few gay men and occasional lesbians who have been arrested, or convicted, or sentenced for crimes against children. But if you Google pastors plus sexual abuse, or Catholic priests plus sexual abuse, you will get literally hundreds of thousands of hits.
Every single goddamn year.
The Boy Scouts were no different. I worked for them 50 years ago, but I only lasted a few months because of the unrelenting homophobia everywhere. I didn’t want to get caught up in any scandal simply because I was a gay man. I had no interest in kids, even teenagers. For decades, the scouts have a problem with sexual abuse, which for decades they tried to blame on gay men, and for decades they covered it up and shifted scoutmasters around and did everything that the Catholic Church did. But the thing was, openly gay men and boys were not allowed in the scouts. So who was doing the molesting? Men who were considered by the scouts, their communities, their families, their wives, and above all, themselves TO BE HETEROSEXUAL. Most likely regressed pedophiles, every single one of them.
Not gay. Just opportunists. Do you know why youth pastors molest kids? Because the youth ministry is where the kids are.
This is the story. The very people who are the guardians of morality youth, innocence, and purity were the ones doing the molesting. They were the ones doing the coverups. They were the ones accusing gay people are doing what we gay people are not doing. They are the ones shouting from their steeple tops that gay people are a danger, drag queens are a danger, transgender people are a danger. They were molesting, lying, slandering, revising, abusing, covering up, lying lying lying lying lying. Again and again and again.
Can you say projection? I certainly can.
And they are still doing it. And they’re still getting away with it. And almost as bad as what they are doing, is the fact that what they are doing is allowing the problem of the sexual abuse of children to continue by constantly pointing fingers at other people.
As usual, every accusation is an admission of guilt.
Absolutely.
This is why any and all investigatons into charges of child molestation by clergy and others need to be taken out of the hands of the offending church and placed where they rightly belong: in the hands of the civil authorities. Churches have routinely shown they aren't up to task. Stop placing foxes in front of the henhouses. It never ends well.
The thing is, it's actually what Christianity did for centuries. Funny how in their alternative history, this tradition is passed over.
𝐵𝑢𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑤𝑎𝑠 𝑝𝑢𝑠ℎ𝑏𝑎𝑐𝑘 𝑓𝑟𝑜𝑚 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜 𝑤𝑜𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑒𝑑 𝑖𝑓 𝑚𝑖𝑛𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑠 𝑛𝑒𝑒𝑑𝑒𝑑 𝑡𝑜 𝑏𝑒 𝑏𝑎𝑛𝑛𝑒𝑑 𝑖𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑎𝑏𝑢𝑠𝑒𝑑 “16- 𝑎𝑛𝑑 17-𝑦𝑒𝑎𝑟-𝑜𝑙𝑑𝑠 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ𝑜𝑢𝑡 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑖𝑛𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑐𝑜𝑢𝑟𝑠𝑒” 𝑜𝑟 𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑚𝑖𝑡𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑟𝑖𝑚𝑒 𝑏𝑒𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑒 𝑓𝑖𝑛𝑑𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝐽𝑒𝑠𝑢𝑠.
Because children who are almost adults don't count as children. After all, they are fully capable of pushing babies out the hoohaw. And committing the crime before finding Jesus certainly doesn't count, since finding Jesus always makes a person incapable of such a crime. Nevermind the fact that when they let sex offenders out of prison, they aren't allowed to be teachers if they found Jesus. It's not the same thing at all, it's only a position of trust and authority over children.
Conviction of a sex crime should bar anyone from ministerial credentials. Credible accusations should bar anyone from ministerial credentials. Why can't they understand this simple thing that would protect children? Indoctrination is one hell of a drug.
This is the denomination of Swaggert and Bakker. They have had public sex scandals since the 80s. They should be able to figure this out.
"Ministers need to be BANNED?" How about: "Ministers need to be ARRESTED and INDICTED!" This business of forgiveness being equivalent to a pardon needs to STOP NOW.
Forgiveness is NOT a "get out of jail free" card. Even the Bible mentions about God, through people, punishing those who feign repentance just to seek "forgiveness" only to go back to their sinful ways once the "pardon" has been given.
Problem is that not only is forgiveness treated as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, it is too often employed in lieu of actual criminal PUNISHMENT. Personally, I'm sick and tired of reading about offending priests / pastors / ministers / whatever, doing the Jimmy Swaggart routine, and then as you say, going right back to what they were doing.
These predators need to do PRISON TIME. Period.
"... they’re experts in covering up leaders who are sexual predators."
Including that Stupid Idiot Trump who is entirely known to be a pedophile, like Epstein was.
"In interviews with NBC News, they described being molested in a church van. Stalked in a church nursery. Raped with a statue of Jesus plucked from a mantle. Told to repent."
REPENT. Where did I hear that just recently?
You misunderstood the poor thing, he was trying to write "repeat" but never had a proper education.
Was there a troll I missed?
Yep. Wait 5 minutes, and refresh the page to see my edited comment.
https://ibb.co/CLqWmSt
https://ibb.co/tT1dfF6m
Bog standard troll.
Which article is he infesting. Sound like christ boringasHell
Are you asking a question ?
I suppose I might be if my phone had included the ? I typed.
Yesterday’s.
The problem with all conservative church institutions is authoritarianism.
Authoritarian systems will ALWAYS lead to abuse. You cannot trust people with the sort of power pastors or priests have. You have to have independent oversight and zero tolerance policies when it comes to abusers.
You cannot trust institutions to police themselves. They will always, always, ALWAYS focus on what is best for the organization.
Any authoritarian institution will be rife with abuse and abusers. It is the perfect hunting ground for them. People within the organization are conditioned for obedience and respect to authority above all else.
Yet another reason separation of church and state is essential. The State being the institution to keep the churches accountable.
Absolutely the case. It sounds like you’ve been reading roll to disbelieve.*
*I know you have.
Not OT: Another maga/xtian nationalist abuser.
https://ibb.co/twKRhfSK
https://www.wftv.com/news/local/winter-park-man-sentenced-170-years-child-sexual-abuse-material/RR3R4KUPSRDCXDADCOTEGVCIIY/
TWO YEARS OLD??? Chuck him in jail and throw away the key!
Go biblical on him by tying him to a millstone and tossing both into the sea.
It's what Jesus would have wanted.
I would put the scumbag in the general prison population and let the trash eliminate the scumbag!
MAGA is becoming as synonymous with child molestation as the word ‘pastor.’
Anti Europe GDPR laws.
Sick fuckers like him make me question my disapproval of capital punishment.
“It’s clear that the denomination is more concerned about its bottom line than the people who make up their congregations.”
That’s all denominations of all religions, some make it more obvious than others. But it was clearly demonstrated by the recent contretemps resulting from the woman calling around for baby formula. While some were happy to give freely, most were more concerned about her status in their church and how well she contributes rather than the actual need of the baby. Those that did give, could prove me wrong, but dig deeper and they probably won’t. But I am cynical.
They don't do background checks. That says all I need to know: so desperate they don't care who the fuck has positions of authority just as long as they stay afloat. And I have heard that some states are pushing back on Catholic priests as mandatory reporters: the sanctity of the confessional is more important than the safety of a child's life.
"They avoided doing thorough background checks or reporting their own to local law enforcement, fearing it would expose them to legal liability and go against the biblical idea of forgiveness."
The concept of christian forgiveness is based on the principle on sincere repentance from the culprit/sinner. How is it possible that I know that and not them ? Not counting the christian denominations that worked hand in hand with the justice system to enforce sentences while giving spiritual pardons.
"have taken some steps to decrease the problem (while actively pushing back against more serious steps)"
Typical christian PR, it may as well be called a tradition.
"As if she was the problem rather than the alleged abuser."
Of course she was. She has a vagina ! A vagina !!!
"[The survivor] offered a simple first step: “Stop giving the lawyers a vote.”
I would say giving the lawyers a vote is only part of the problem. They saw how well hiding their heads in their asses worked for other christian sects, and yet, not only they are doing the same exact thing, but they are doubling down.
One can forgive sins without forgetting that the sins occurred, and without forgetting to make sure that punishment follows.
Forgive the sin? Maybe. Punish the crime? ABSOLUTELY!
"How is it possible that I know that and not them ?"
They know. They just have a much lower bar for determining what "sincerely repentance" is. This is the denomination of Jimmy Swaggert, the type specimen for the Public Apology to the Ceiling.
Gotta do background checks. Mandatory. Not maybe. These people who prey on children can't be around children. There's no maybe about children's safety. Every Catholic church in Boston does background checks on parishioners. They did a CORI on me and all I did was lector and be a Eucharist minister. Nothing privately with children. Even though 99 times out of 100 it's the priests. Unfortunately there was one guy who went to my church I was an aquaitence of his and he did prey on the choir boys at my church. But he had money and they gave him the Chevrus award one year. Thank goodness he is dead now and rotting in Hell. But all three of the priests did his funeral.
Okay, who is surprised here. Anyone? ANYONE?
Honestly, I'm beginning to think that, the harder they thump their bibles, the more skeletons they have in their closets. Worse, they make unfounded assertions that they will control those pastors who act out, then proceed to do NOTHING.
So we have Catholic priests, Seventh-Day leaders, Baptist and other evangelical preachers and now, representatives of the Assembly of God, with leaders of their respective churches ABUSING CHILDREN.
I want to know just WHEN local, state, and federal law enforcement is going to recognize that a priest's collar is not the guarantor of decent behavior and too often quite the opposite.
Every “youth pastor” should have a law enforcement officer detailed to keep an eye on him.
I would apply that idea to all religious clergy of all religions!
“They avoided doing thorough background checks or reporting their own to local law enforcement, fearing it would expose them to legal liability and go against the biblical idea of forgiveness.”
How’s that working out for them? It in fact gives them even more culpability in the problems that they created, by not trying to avoid problematic people and not holding them accountable when they are accused.
The more they try to ignore the problem the more they’re causing it and responsible for it continuing.