I don't know what they think invocations are going to accomplish. It isn't as if appeals to magical thinking are going to turn elected representatives into better people. More than anything, it is about Christians marking their territory in the public square paid for with everyone's tax dollars, with forcing their rote conformity on everyone.
Their goal is to make their brand of Christianity mandatory. They don't care about making people better, they care about making people obey and conform.
The idea a particular version of Christianity could be forced on this country with a happy ending is about as stupid and dangeroous as thinking gets. Evidently, they would like to recreate the Thirty Years War.
The Thirty Years War, 1618-1648, was a specific conflict I was referring to. Millions perished trying to sort out who was, or was not, a true Christian. Prior to World War I, it was Europe's bloodiest conflict.
It accomplishes putting them in a position of authority that no one else has. Choosing the religion of the families in the district. Giving them control over others.
We Brits live in a country with a constitutional monarchy but it would be most unusual for meetings like this to include prayer. Apart from Parliament which starts with a daily prayer (attendance strictly not compulsory) and church meetings everything is strictly secular. Like Ms Escobar said what is it that praying will make you do better?
This is faux virtue signalling by people who want to impose their religion on others.
Much of western Europe is effectively post-Christian, and I see that as progress. The American founders knew their European history, and were very wise not to give religion any role to play in governance. Unfortunately, there are a lot of American Christians who seem to think those two-hundred and fifty year old laws don't really apply to Bible-humping Christians.
Since I have been emailing asshole legislators to call them out, I thought it would be good to email Ms Escobar with a short note of encouragement. Subject line was "Kudos! April 14th Board Meeting"
Ms Escobar:
Thank you for standing up for the religious freedoms of all students in your community. You have supporters across the country and around the world. Hemant Mehta, an activist with a significant following, has brought your courage to the attention of his following. We stand with you.
I included a link to the article, so she could read what Hemant wrote, and see the support she has here in the commentariat.
Pam Escobar is absolutely brilliant. How frustrating it must be for her to offer up cogent reasons why going forward with the proposal is a bad idea and a costly one and then have the board vote in favor. The members' personal biases and egos don't allow them to put the children first. Wouldn't it be wonderful to compel those voting in favor to share their actual reasoning?! Shameful and ignorant.
She was sooooo good. Clear and composed and emotional. I would do well to incorporate her words into my thinking. Since reading the article and listening to her, I wondered how her approach might be improved.
Maybe start with the following.
Ask, “By raising your hand, do you cherish your personal choice of religion?”
Then ask, “By raising your hand, do you support the U.S. Constitution with respect to the separation of church and state that provides you full support of your choice?”
Then follow up with her personal account of why the proposal should be rejected.
Are unreasonable people that are all hopped up on some kind of religion the type we want on a school board? This “board” has little concern for the learning environment they are presenting. They are personally motivated to advance their own directives.
The dilemma is, will the courts continue to uphold separation of church and state. It is definitely coming under attack, which is why so many school boards and others are pushing it now. They think the current climate is supportive of inserting more religion into schools.
Not just yeah, but HELL, YEAH! Thank you, Pam Escobar, for saying that out loud and to the parties that obviously needed to hear it.
And to Ms. Freeman: "Prayer in general?" Seriously? You and I both know that the brand of prayer most likely to be promoted at your meetings will be of the Christian variety and no other, BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY YOU WANT IT. Would you be as welcoming to a Jewish prayer, perhaps one from a representative of Islam or (goodness gracious me!) one from a Satanist? We both know the answer to that one
All this amounts to is more virtue-signaling and territory-marking by Christians who are scared that they don't dominate the culture enough to suit themselves. Sorry-not-sorry, but this is a SECULAR government, despite the unfortunate aberrations you cited, and prayers of any sort frankly have NO PLACE.
Pray by yourself if you want. Isn't that what Jesus said to do?
That would not surprise me at all. Now we've got laws like that here too, but when I went to school, the first five years we kids had to join a prayer before we were allowed to eat our lunch. In my county that stopped when we kids pointed out that not all subscribed to Jahve. That was app 1975, and it was kind of nationwide organised to stop the silly thing.
I'm not sure. There are probably legal ways. Such as inviting a variety of 'invokers' from all religions and none, or maybe sticking to some extremely vague ceremonial deism.
My hope/guess is that the lawyer will help out with the policy committee. If the lawyer isn't fundie themselves, then we can hope that when the evangelicals get the committee's recommendations for an actually legal version of their invocation, they will drop it because it won't be what they want.
1. General prayer is a bullshit way of saying Christian prayer because no other religion will be allowed. There will always be an excuse to not include any other religion or even a secular invocation.
2. Congratulations to Hemant for the humanist award. Definitely well earned and deserved.
Louder, for the MAGAts in the back. Say it again to the idiots you are surrounded with on the board. EVERYONE has the right to religious freedom, not just the white evangelicals pushing this nonsense.
Isn't education one of the '7 Mountains' that Dominionists want to conquer? As long as they get to impose their religion on others, they don't care that it doesn't contribute to the common good. We need to investigate how we can encourage more rational secular types to run for school boards and local government office.
Education is indeed, not quite at the top of the Dominionists' priorities. Those mountains are, in fact: religion, family, education, government, media, arts and entertainment, and business. In other words, virtually EVERY SEGMENT OF LIFE.
Though I can't help but notice that they didn't mention SEX! 😁
They know the sex will happen with or without them. They're just there to ensure that nobody knows how to use condoms or birth control so they can spawn lots of little brainwashable babies.
They think the common good is solely everyone kowtowing to their version of Jesus, everything else optional to discouraged... Probably by stoning, and not the fun kind.
Christians have their many, many houses of worship to pray and be with their god (who is supposed to be everywhere, if I'm not mistaken). They have bible studies at those houses of worship and in their own homes (which are already full to bursting with their religion/god), where they can pray to their heart's content. They push prayer in public schools, which do not prohibit prayer as long as it does not disrupt the class and what the teacher is trying to instruct their pupils on. Hell, they can pray in their cars. And bottom line: Didn't Jesus tell his followers NOT to pray in public?
How much God does one need in civil, secular doings? The answer to that one is obvious. Pushy xtians are like surly drunks. They need to be cut off at some point.
It sounds like they already have a group prayer before the meeting, and part of Ms. Escobar's frustration as a Christian is that it's ridiculous to then have a second one once the meeting begins.
Escobar made excellent points all around. Good for her for standing up to the majority for what is right like that. She wasn’t afraid of losing her position, let’s hope she never is.
Unfortunately, you can’t reason people out of positions they never reasoned themselves into. The folks promoting this only have excuses not reasons for doing it. Their reason is corrupt and they know it, that’s why they make excuses.
Sometimes I want to show these Jesus freaks exactly what they look like by showing clips of movies and shows lambasting the Christian grift, like “The Righteous Gemstones” or even the episode of “My Name Is Earl” with the little faith healer boy. (Fun note. The kid from that episode is a main character in Gemstones.) But you know they won’t get the message, they’ll just think we’re persecuting them. The message is we know it’s all an act and a way to steal money.
I wonder how long til the harassment and threats of violence come at Pam Escobar. I notice that when Christians don’t get their way, they (Christians) resort to harassment and violence (sometimes right to violence).
I hope she and her family are safe and taking precautions to ensure her family’s safety.
The school board meeting was 24 days ago, as of the date of this article. It is likely that the harassment and threats have been happening for at least 23 days.
Somehow, I don't see Ms. Escobar just sitting back and taking that crap, though. She threw it down in front of the whole school board and didn't blink.
If any of them have half a brain in their heads, they will NOT take her lightly.
I don't know what they think invocations are going to accomplish. It isn't as if appeals to magical thinking are going to turn elected representatives into better people. More than anything, it is about Christians marking their territory in the public square paid for with everyone's tax dollars, with forcing their rote conformity on everyone.
Their goal is to make their brand of Christianity mandatory. They don't care about making people better, they care about making people obey and conform.
The idea a particular version of Christianity could be forced on this country with a happy ending is about as stupid and dangeroous as thinking gets. Evidently, they would like to recreate the Thirty Years War.
Thirty Years? We can do better than that! Three Hundred Years at least.
The Thirty Years War, 1618-1648, was a specific conflict I was referring to. Millions perished trying to sort out who was, or was not, a true Christian. Prior to World War I, it was Europe's bloodiest conflict.
https://youtu.be/ca3IQdfuWTQ?si=9-gphlhG6kgv-9TZ
It accomplishes putting them in a position of authority that no one else has. Choosing the religion of the families in the district. Giving them control over others.
We Brits live in a country with a constitutional monarchy but it would be most unusual for meetings like this to include prayer. Apart from Parliament which starts with a daily prayer (attendance strictly not compulsory) and church meetings everything is strictly secular. Like Ms Escobar said what is it that praying will make you do better?
This is faux virtue signalling by people who want to impose their religion on others.
Much of western Europe is effectively post-Christian, and I see that as progress. The American founders knew their European history, and were very wise not to give religion any role to play in governance. Unfortunately, there are a lot of American Christians who seem to think those two-hundred and fifty year old laws don't really apply to Bible-humping Christians.
It’s the Puritans fault. Now the idea is embedded in our culture.
Yes, we were started by some real fanatics in some places.
I like to think of it as Europe delivering all its rejects to America.
That's actually quite accurate in their case! And Georgia started as a penal colony.
Marking it like a cranky old tomcat, peeing on everything around them.
I like your comment about marking territory. It's like they are dogs and need to mark everything they pass with their pee.
Since I have been emailing asshole legislators to call them out, I thought it would be good to email Ms Escobar with a short note of encouragement. Subject line was "Kudos! April 14th Board Meeting"
Ms Escobar:
Thank you for standing up for the religious freedoms of all students in your community. You have supporters across the country and around the world. Hemant Mehta, an activist with a significant following, has brought your courage to the attention of his following. We stand with you.
I included a link to the article, so she could read what Hemant wrote, and see the support she has here in the commentariat.
Most excellent! Class move, Joe!
Pam Escobar is absolutely brilliant. How frustrating it must be for her to offer up cogent reasons why going forward with the proposal is a bad idea and a costly one and then have the board vote in favor. The members' personal biases and egos don't allow them to put the children first. Wouldn't it be wonderful to compel those voting in favor to share their actual reasoning?! Shameful and ignorant.
Thank you for sharing!
More thinking on this...
She was sooooo good. Clear and composed and emotional. I would do well to incorporate her words into my thinking. Since reading the article and listening to her, I wondered how her approach might be improved.
Maybe start with the following.
Ask, “By raising your hand, do you cherish your personal choice of religion?”
Then ask, “By raising your hand, do you support the U.S. Constitution with respect to the separation of church and state that provides you full support of your choice?”
Then follow up with her personal account of why the proposal should be rejected.
I LIKE it! 👍👍👍
Also ask "On your way to our meetings how many churches do you pass where you could stop and pray? Anyway, can't you pray at home?"
Does it count if it is a raised sieg heil salute?
Are unreasonable people that are all hopped up on some kind of religion the type we want on a school board? This “board” has little concern for the learning environment they are presenting. They are personally motivated to advance their own directives.
They should not only share their reasoning but also personally pay for the cost of the imminent lawsuit that they will lose
"The American Humanist Association is giving me its 2025 Humanist Media Award at its conference in Chicago later this summer!"
Fully deserved, Hemant. Your unique, tireless work is greatly appreciated and meaningful.
I appreciate that!
Indeed. Big time props to Hemant and all he does.
Absolutely. He has SO earned it!
The dilemma is, will the courts continue to uphold separation of church and state. It is definitely coming under attack, which is why so many school boards and others are pushing it now. They think the current climate is supportive of inserting more religion into schools.
Yes, Nancy, that’s because there is a deranged fascist conman imitating a POTUS in our White House. Nothing is “sacred” in our Constitution anymore.
𝐹𝑟𝑎𝑛𝑘𝑙𝑦, 𝑤𝑒 𝑎𝑟𝑒 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑖𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑏𝑢𝑠𝑖𝑛𝑒𝑠𝑠 𝑜𝑓 𝑓𝑎𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑜𝑟 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑛. 𝑇ℎ𝑎𝑡'𝑠 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑤ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑤𝑒 𝑑𝑜!
Not just yeah, but HELL, YEAH! Thank you, Pam Escobar, for saying that out loud and to the parties that obviously needed to hear it.
And to Ms. Freeman: "Prayer in general?" Seriously? You and I both know that the brand of prayer most likely to be promoted at your meetings will be of the Christian variety and no other, BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY YOU WANT IT. Would you be as welcoming to a Jewish prayer, perhaps one from a representative of Islam or (goodness gracious me!) one from a Satanist? We both know the answer to that one
All this amounts to is more virtue-signaling and territory-marking by Christians who are scared that they don't dominate the culture enough to suit themselves. Sorry-not-sorry, but this is a SECULAR government, despite the unfortunate aberrations you cited, and prayers of any sort frankly have NO PLACE.
Pray by yourself if you want. Isn't that what Jesus said to do?
Madame Escobar needs to be replicated and put into as many schools hoards and local governments as possible.
"Escobar, by the way, used to be a reporter, in print and on TV. It would explain why she knows the law here far better than her colleagues do"
It's worse than that. She actually know the law better than the school board's lawyer...
And if push comes to shove, either she has the Freedom From Religion's phone number or I'll make sure she gets it!
The school board's lawyer probably does know the law at least as well as Ms Escobar. He's just lying about it.
I don't think he's lying. Rather, he's counting the billable hours he can run up on this even if he loses.
That would not surprise me at all. Now we've got laws like that here too, but when I went to school, the first five years we kids had to join a prayer before we were allowed to eat our lunch. In my county that stopped when we kids pointed out that not all subscribed to Jahve. That was app 1975, and it was kind of nationwide organised to stop the silly thing.
I'm not sure. There are probably legal ways. Such as inviting a variety of 'invokers' from all religions and none, or maybe sticking to some extremely vague ceremonial deism.
My hope/guess is that the lawyer will help out with the policy committee. If the lawyer isn't fundie themselves, then we can hope that when the evangelicals get the committee's recommendations for an actually legal version of their invocation, they will drop it because it won't be what they want.
Drumpster showed us that lawyers who shouldn't have their diploma, encore moins get the bar exams, exist.
👆🎯That's probably a Liberty U. graduate lawyer.
1. General prayer is a bullshit way of saying Christian prayer because no other religion will be allowed. There will always be an excuse to not include any other religion or even a secular invocation.
2. Congratulations to Hemant for the humanist award. Definitely well earned and deserved.
𝐼𝑓 𝑦𝑜𝑢 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑝𝑟𝑎𝑦𝑒𝑟 𝑎𝑡 𝑚𝑒𝑒𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑔𝑠, 𝑠ℎ𝑒 𝑎𝑑𝑑𝑒𝑑, “𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝑦𝑜𝑢 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑡𝑜 𝑏𝑒 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑝𝑎𝑟𝑒𝑑 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑡𝑜 𝑠𝑢𝑒 𝑢𝑠 𝑏𝑒𝑐𝑎𝑢𝑠𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑟𝑖𝑔ℎ𝑡 𝑡𝑜 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑒𝑑𝑜𝑚.”
Louder, for the MAGAts in the back. Say it again to the idiots you are surrounded with on the board. EVERYONE has the right to religious freedom, not just the white evangelicals pushing this nonsense.
Isn't education one of the '7 Mountains' that Dominionists want to conquer? As long as they get to impose their religion on others, they don't care that it doesn't contribute to the common good. We need to investigate how we can encourage more rational secular types to run for school boards and local government office.
Education is indeed, not quite at the top of the Dominionists' priorities. Those mountains are, in fact: religion, family, education, government, media, arts and entertainment, and business. In other words, virtually EVERY SEGMENT OF LIFE.
Though I can't help but notice that they didn't mention SEX! 😁
I think that is a given. They seek Gideon and you know what happened with Sex there.
That's one of the main things they think dominating all the areas they list would control. Besides, saying "sex" is a sin.
They know the sex will happen with or without them. They're just there to ensure that nobody knows how to use condoms or birth control so they can spawn lots of little brainwashable babies.
But the "fertility president" has. Women need to start having more babies. The cost of raising these children... we're not going to discuss that now.
They think the common good is solely everyone kowtowing to their version of Jesus, everything else optional to discouraged... Probably by stoning, and not the fun kind.
Christians have their many, many houses of worship to pray and be with their god (who is supposed to be everywhere, if I'm not mistaken). They have bible studies at those houses of worship and in their own homes (which are already full to bursting with their religion/god), where they can pray to their heart's content. They push prayer in public schools, which do not prohibit prayer as long as it does not disrupt the class and what the teacher is trying to instruct their pupils on. Hell, they can pray in their cars. And bottom line: Didn't Jesus tell his followers NOT to pray in public?
How much God does one need in civil, secular doings? The answer to that one is obvious. Pushy xtians are like surly drunks. They need to be cut off at some point.
You can pray silently for a moment before your work. You can have a group prayer 10 minutes before your work.
Which is why I know God has nothing to do with this. This is just white Evangelicals peeing on something common and saying it is theirs alone.
It sounds like they already have a group prayer before the meeting, and part of Ms. Escobar's frustration as a Christian is that it's ridiculous to then have a second one once the meeting begins.
Exactly. Pray all you want before the meeting. Don't force prayer at the meeting.
The prayer before the meeting is to know what prayer to say at the meeting.
God damn territorial pissings, that is all this is.
It’s official, Trump has finally officially lost his fucking mind: https://www.mediaite.com/trump/bizarre-trump-administration-confuses-swedish-officials-by-demanding-city-cut-dei-policies/
Phenomenal. Trump thinks he can dictate terms to the world ... and I sincerely hope the world can deliver a CRUSHING DISAPPOINTMENT to his sorry ass.
He had one in the first place?
Abby Normal.
“Allegedly”.
This must have been edited "In March, France received one such letter, to which one French official replied, “It is out of the question.”
The real answer must have been more like "Non, mais vous vous foutez de ma gueule là ?" (Are you fucking kidding me?).
Dementia’s got Trump in its grasp and is holding him waiting for Alzheimer’s to start landing blows.
And Parkinson’s is waiting for its turn.
Escobar made excellent points all around. Good for her for standing up to the majority for what is right like that. She wasn’t afraid of losing her position, let’s hope she never is.
Unfortunately, you can’t reason people out of positions they never reasoned themselves into. The folks promoting this only have excuses not reasons for doing it. Their reason is corrupt and they know it, that’s why they make excuses.
Sometimes I want to show these Jesus freaks exactly what they look like by showing clips of movies and shows lambasting the Christian grift, like “The Righteous Gemstones” or even the episode of “My Name Is Earl” with the little faith healer boy. (Fun note. The kid from that episode is a main character in Gemstones.) But you know they won’t get the message, they’ll just think we’re persecuting them. The message is we know it’s all an act and a way to steal money.
How many would just see themselves in those shows and still see nothing wrong?
I wonder how long til the harassment and threats of violence come at Pam Escobar. I notice that when Christians don’t get their way, they (Christians) resort to harassment and violence (sometimes right to violence).
I hope she and her family are safe and taking precautions to ensure her family’s safety.
The school board meeting was 24 days ago, as of the date of this article. It is likely that the harassment and threats have been happening for at least 23 days.
Somehow, I don't see Ms. Escobar just sitting back and taking that crap, though. She threw it down in front of the whole school board and didn't blink.
If any of them have half a brain in their heads, they will NOT take her lightly.