A "religious exemption" amounts to little more than a lame excuse. Sad to see that it has any validity at all, and encouraging to see that more people are seeing through it.
Because Yahweh doesn't want them to pollute their bodies with nasty vaccines. Oh, but drugs and booze are just FINE, thankuverymuch! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ
Well of course ๐ฃ๐ฐ๐ฐ๐ป๐ฆ is fine, what ๐ฆ๐ญ๐ด๐ฆ are they meant to use as an excuse for their behavior when they impregnate their own daughters?!
I gotta ask: do the roughly 1000 Amanites have a problem with vaccines? (Donโt think so. They were big in making Microwaves and Refrigerators.). This should be a legal standard: if the Amanites do it, there is no religious exemption.
If someone is being asked to do something against their religious beliefs then they shouldn't do it. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't bear the consequences of doing so.
Unfortunately not getting certain vaccinations is disqualifying for a number of situations, religious beliefs or not. Healthcare, military service, occupations with a high degree of direct public contact readily come to mind. I was an environmental health officer in the military & vaccinations, shot cards as we called them, were reviewed to ensure we didnโt lose service members to disease affecting mission effectiveness. If you donโt believe in vaccines perhaps nursing isnโt the right profession.
Itโs amusing that in this case a religious exemption isnโt the motivation but getting the tuition. Even if it were, Iโd be asking how effective a nurse would he be if he was also a disease vector causing harm to his patients?
In the 2010s, the UK's NHS became concerned about the number hospital patients who acquired MRSA in hospitals. It ruled that all hospital staff must have bare arms up to the elbow. Some religious leaders tried to object, but the government said patient safety came before religious beliefs. The Prime Minister, David Cameron paid an official visit to a hospital around then - and a doctor refused him entry into his wards as he was wearing a suit jacket!
I'm a reasonably intelligent guy, but I cannot even begin to get my head around the people who claim their religion and/or politics trumps science. No discovery of science has ever pointed to the truth of any religious doctrine.
His mom sounds like a "my religion tells me vaccines don't work" kinda person.
But the argument he put before the court was the much more standard "my religious ethics forbid me from participating in this secular practice" argument. It failed because the court showed he didn't actually hold the ethics he based his objection on, with no need at all to get into the craziness of a claim they don't work because Jesus.
Aside from the problems associated with fake โreligiousโ exemptions, how much further away from science can we get than teaching scientific disciplines (nursing, etc.) through religiously affiliated schools? Crazy!
Yes, they make the worst healthcare professionals, because the judge everyone by their religion. When back during the AIDS epidemic, the bigoted nurse caring for my bestie, was so cold, and lacking empathy, found out later she was a fundy.
And then they want exemptions from treating ๐ค๐ฆ๐ณ๐ต๐ข๐ช๐ฏ kinds of patients, or providing ๐ค๐ฆ๐ณ๐ต๐ข๐ช๐ฏ kinds of healthcare...
Medical professionals shouldn't get exemptions from shรญt, religious or otherwise. If you can't do the whole job, and do it for everyone who walks through your doors, and leave your own ego in the staff locker room, then find yourself another profession.
Where do xtians get off demanding the right to infect everyone not of their particular brand of idiocy with a highly contagious disease? Especially in publicly shared spaces like the supermarket.
May I remind Mr. Perry that only 2 xtian sects out of 45,000 are antivaxx. They are Church of Christ, Scientist and Dutch Reformed Church. If you aren't one of those two then you are SOL.
First of all, I think religious exemptions for vaccination are dumb and probably should not be allowed. That being said, I understand why they exist. I do have a real problem seeing the sincerity of belief coming from tha MAGA crowd. Their sincere anti-vax beliefs only started when Der OrangeFรผhrer was going on about horse dewormer, less than a decade ago. Indoctrination is one hell of a drug.
Second, Mr Perry probably should not have pushed the case as far as he did. It did give him quite the dilemma, though. Either try the religious exemption angle so mommy pays, or take on crippling student loan debt. It serves to highlight the biggest problem that higher education has today: the lack of affordability for those who aren't independently wealthy.
I feel for his financial struggle. I do think the decision was correct. Maybe his mother will see the light and stop her nonsense. Probably not.
This one is RICH! "My body is a temple." Uh-huh. A "temple" that is open to ethanol and nicotine, but not to something that may actually SAVE HIS LIFE! Stipulated that having to foot the bill himself for his education is a big deal, but who says Mom has to know that he got jabbed?
Fact is, religion as an excuse is failing more and more recently. All to the good, I say.
It seems to me that most of the religious excuses we see are MAGA wingnuts objecting to a government mandate they disagree with. "Itโs against my religion to do anything Democrats support!"
My favorite takeaway: "[T]he extremely low bar of using your religion to get out of following a rule everyone else has to obey." Thanks for reporting this story.
Iโm dumbfounded by people who are in or looking to get into the healthcare industry as caregivers who think they ought to be exempt from vaccines. Or are anti-vax at all. How can you believe in medicine, except this medicine? How can you care for patients but not care enough to protect them with this small thing?
I know there are folks who are doing it for entirely selfish reasons, a sense of control over others, and not every doctor or nurse is altruistic, but damn. This is the easiest thing, and they get that wrong. If I were in a position to hire for a medical facility, I would not hire folks who were anti-vax just because they arenโt serious about medicine or caring for patients.
I am not talking about those who have medical reasons not to vaccinate, allergies and such. I am not even saying that everyone needs to just accept whatever drug or treatment anyone puts forward (I would never try anything exDr. Wakefield offers up) but by the time something is a vaccine it has already gone through the wringer to be safe and effective. Iโm just saying, if you donโt understand or believe in safe medical interventions, why are you a nurse or doctor? You just arenโt a serious person and I canโt trust your judgement.
I suspect this guy was not terribly selfish, just lazy. He's hoping that a court ruling against him will convince mom to keep funding him even if he gets vaccinated. A waste of taxpayer legal resources, so he doesn't have to fight with his mom about money. "See mom, I HAVE to get it! The judge says so!"
Sure, in this case it wasnโt really about the vaccines and just a family squabble that bled over into everyone elseโs lives. I mean, I wouldnโt be going him passing grades on his field experiences if this is his priority even if itโs not really about the vaccine. But Iโm not in charge.
But there are plenty of nurses and hospital workers who are anti-vax. And those confound me.
Thatโs fine. I was just making a personal note, I am not in charge of the school and cannot affect his grade. My point though was more about how he was not thinking for himself so much, which is an actual goal of higher education.
I disagree. There is zero reason to prima facie fail him for this. His grade should be based on completing assignments, practical demonstration of skills, etc.
How it *could* affect is grade is when he fails to complete a practical assignment because he wasn't allowed in to the training facility without being vaccinated. And that is plenty sufficient - there is no need to heap on additional cultural punishments.
Itโs so bizarre that he didnโt just get vaccinated without telling his mother. What a waste of time. In order to be a nursing student, he would need to have provided proof of vaccination and/or immunity to multiple infectious diseases. Dordtโs own website has a very typical set of vaccine requirements for all students and more typical vaccines required for the nursing program: https://www.dordt.edu/general-uploads/dordtuniversityimmunizationdocumentation.pdf
Evidently his mom is totes fine with MMR, Tetanus, heck even annual flu. Just not Covid? Doesn't make sense, but then again irrational antivax belief is irrational.
Not on my 1st cuppa yet, so Iโm not sure Iโm coherent. But then, neither is this idjit.
So apparently, he wasnโt telling the truth. Does that mean he was perjuring himself? Or does it simply mean that he was bringing a frivolous lawsuit? or does it mean he doesnโt believe his religion at all but was merely trying to please Mama so that she would keep the cash flowing?
If so, the latter would make him like every other tele-grifter, but in this case, he was grifting his own mother, whose name I cannot pronounce: Gay-lin, Gah-lin, Gah-lyinโ, what???
Quite apart from the question of religious exemptions to begin withโ if we were treating religion rationally, it wouldnโt be exempting someone from anything except committing what would be crimes in other situations. Things like murder, theft, child abuseโ and thereโs something christonotsees of the the GOPedos could get behindโ those would be valid exemptions.
But vaccines? Nyuhhhuhh. And apparently, his religion did not prevent him from lying, or grifting, or endangering others.
But there is also this: if your religion prevents you from doing a job which has reasonable and rational requirements, then maybe you should just find yourself another kind of a job so that your religion will be neither burden to yourself nor others.
No, that would be too easy. Much easier than pleasing his gorgon of a mother.
Probably not. Courts mostly only care about statements you make to the court. So if he put something on a form for his school, and then in court fessed up that it was inaccurate or a lie, I don't think a typical court is going to pursue that. It's when you say something under court oath and then the court finds out you lied to them, that judges tend to get angry.
"To be clear, a religious exemption shouldnโt be automatic."
The concept of a religious exemption shouldn't even exist.
A "religious exemption" amounts to little more than a lame excuse. Sad to see that it has any validity at all, and encouraging to see that more people are seeing through it.
IF...
They have God, why do they NEED an exemption?
Because Yahweh doesn't want them to pollute their bodies with nasty vaccines. Oh, but drugs and booze are just FINE, thankuverymuch! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ
Well of course ๐ฃ๐ฐ๐ฐ๐ป๐ฆ is fine, what ๐ฆ๐ญ๐ด๐ฆ are they meant to use as an excuse for their behavior when they impregnate their own daughters?!
I gotta ask: do the roughly 1000 Amanites have a problem with vaccines? (Donโt think so. They were big in making Microwaves and Refrigerators.). This should be a legal standard: if the Amanites do it, there is no religious exemption.
โ๏ธ๐ฏ
If someone is being asked to do something against their religious beliefs then they shouldn't do it. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't bear the consequences of doing so.
This guy reminds me of a joke I heard when I was a kid:
"I don't drink, I don't smoke and I don't swear." *pause* "God damn it, I left my cigarettes in the bar!"
Unfortunately not getting certain vaccinations is disqualifying for a number of situations, religious beliefs or not. Healthcare, military service, occupations with a high degree of direct public contact readily come to mind. I was an environmental health officer in the military & vaccinations, shot cards as we called them, were reviewed to ensure we didnโt lose service members to disease affecting mission effectiveness. If you donโt believe in vaccines perhaps nursing isnโt the right profession.
Itโs amusing that in this case a religious exemption isnโt the motivation but getting the tuition. Even if it were, Iโd be asking how effective a nurse would he be if he was also a disease vector causing harm to his patients?
In the 2010s, the UK's NHS became concerned about the number hospital patients who acquired MRSA in hospitals. It ruled that all hospital staff must have bare arms up to the elbow. Some religious leaders tried to object, but the government said patient safety came before religious beliefs. The Prime Minister, David Cameron paid an official visit to a hospital around then - and a doctor refused him entry into his wards as he was wearing a suit jacket!
"Iโd be asking how effective a nurse would he be if he was also a disease vector causing harm to his patients?"
Making sure he has a steady supply of patients.
He sounds really dumb. Not what Iโd be looking for in a nurse.
Nurse, hell! If I were running a hospital, I wouldn't hire him as a ๐ซ๐ข๐ฏ๐ช๐ต๐ฐ๐ณ!
I'm a reasonably intelligent guy, but I cannot even begin to get my head around the people who claim their religion and/or politics trumps science. No discovery of science has ever pointed to the truth of any religious doctrine.
Yes, it has. Science has proven unequivocally that when religion X says every religion not X is false, religion X is correct.
Well, you got me there. lol
I know. Ya gots ta get up pretty gloddam early if ya wants to win a battle of twits widโ me!
I'm two time zones ahead of you and I am just on my second cup of Peet's Dark Roast. I am still not ready for a battle of twits!
His mom sounds like a "my religion tells me vaccines don't work" kinda person.
But the argument he put before the court was the much more standard "my religious ethics forbid me from participating in this secular practice" argument. It failed because the court showed he didn't actually hold the ethics he based his objection on, with no need at all to get into the craziness of a claim they don't work because Jesus.
Aside from the problems associated with fake โreligiousโ exemptions, how much further away from science can we get than teaching scientific disciplines (nursing, etc.) through religiously affiliated schools? Crazy!
Yes, they make the worst healthcare professionals, because the judge everyone by their religion. When back during the AIDS epidemic, the bigoted nurse caring for my bestie, was so cold, and lacking empathy, found out later she was a fundy.
These are the saddest examples ๐ข
I was heartbroken, my bestie was dying and she was so rude and mean. I went into healthcare to counter her nastiness.
And then they want exemptions from treating ๐ค๐ฆ๐ณ๐ต๐ข๐ช๐ฏ kinds of patients, or providing ๐ค๐ฆ๐ณ๐ต๐ข๐ช๐ฏ kinds of healthcare...
Medical professionals shouldn't get exemptions from shรญt, religious or otherwise. If you can't do the whole job, and do it for everyone who walks through your doors, and leave your own ego in the staff locker room, then find yourself another profession.
Where do xtians get off demanding the right to infect everyone not of their particular brand of idiocy with a highly contagious disease? Especially in publicly shared spaces like the supermarket.
Because that's what this boils down to.
Because they want to kill us, every time I go to the GP's office some MAGA is hacking up a lung, and not even politely covering their mouth.
In a saner country, your right to religious expression should end where the germs you spew meet the air I'm inhaling in hospital.
Glad the court rejected the lunacy, even if it didn't go as far as that.
May I remind Mr. Perry that only 2 xtian sects out of 45,000 are antivaxx. They are Church of Christ, Scientist and Dutch Reformed Church. If you aren't one of those two then you are SOL.
๐ผ๐ก ๐ค๐๐ ๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐ข๐ก โ๐๐ ๐๐๐กโ๐๐โ๐ ๐กโ๐๐๐๐ก ๐ก๐ ๐ ๐ก๐๐ ๐๐๐ฆ๐๐๐ ๐๐๐ โ๐๐ ๐๐๐ข๐๐๐ก๐๐๐.
First of all, I think religious exemptions for vaccination are dumb and probably should not be allowed. That being said, I understand why they exist. I do have a real problem seeing the sincerity of belief coming from tha MAGA crowd. Their sincere anti-vax beliefs only started when Der OrangeFรผhrer was going on about horse dewormer, less than a decade ago. Indoctrination is one hell of a drug.
Second, Mr Perry probably should not have pushed the case as far as he did. It did give him quite the dilemma, though. Either try the religious exemption angle so mommy pays, or take on crippling student loan debt. It serves to highlight the biggest problem that higher education has today: the lack of affordability for those who aren't independently wealthy.
I feel for his financial struggle. I do think the decision was correct. Maybe his mother will see the light and stop her nonsense. Probably not.
Religious exemptions for vaccination DEFINITELY should not be allowed !
โฆ ๐ฆ๐ฆ๐ฆ
Trying to figure out if that guy was more honest or stupid.
Not really....
HOnestly? stoopid.
This one is RICH! "My body is a temple." Uh-huh. A "temple" that is open to ethanol and nicotine, but not to something that may actually SAVE HIS LIFE! Stipulated that having to foot the bill himself for his education is a big deal, but who says Mom has to know that he got jabbed?
Fact is, religion as an excuse is failing more and more recently. All to the good, I say.
It seems to me that most of the religious excuses we see are MAGA wingnuts objecting to a government mandate they disagree with. "Itโs against my religion to do anything Democrats support!"
They REACT more than they THINK ... and mostly, I'm not convinced that they think much at all, which is scary.
It makes you wonder if a prominent Democrat had "officially" opposed the COVID vaccine how many MAGATS would have lined up for it.
Ooooo, reverse psychology! Would have been WILD ... and about as unlikely as a snowball in hell!
Sorry...
"MAGA hates what they hate more than they love what they love."
Thanks for the additional confirmation, Joe-E.
Voting against their own interests. ACTING against their own interests. Sometimes it's a wonder they are still alive.
My favorite takeaway: "[T]he extremely low bar of using your religion to get out of following a rule everyone else has to obey." Thanks for reporting this story.
Iโm dumbfounded by people who are in or looking to get into the healthcare industry as caregivers who think they ought to be exempt from vaccines. Or are anti-vax at all. How can you believe in medicine, except this medicine? How can you care for patients but not care enough to protect them with this small thing?
I know there are folks who are doing it for entirely selfish reasons, a sense of control over others, and not every doctor or nurse is altruistic, but damn. This is the easiest thing, and they get that wrong. If I were in a position to hire for a medical facility, I would not hire folks who were anti-vax just because they arenโt serious about medicine or caring for patients.
I am not talking about those who have medical reasons not to vaccinate, allergies and such. I am not even saying that everyone needs to just accept whatever drug or treatment anyone puts forward (I would never try anything exDr. Wakefield offers up) but by the time something is a vaccine it has already gone through the wringer to be safe and effective. Iโm just saying, if you donโt understand or believe in safe medical interventions, why are you a nurse or doctor? You just arenโt a serious person and I canโt trust your judgement.
I suspect this guy was not terribly selfish, just lazy. He's hoping that a court ruling against him will convince mom to keep funding him even if he gets vaccinated. A waste of taxpayer legal resources, so he doesn't have to fight with his mom about money. "See mom, I HAVE to get it! The judge says so!"
Sure, in this case it wasnโt really about the vaccines and just a family squabble that bled over into everyone elseโs lives. I mean, I wouldnโt be going him passing grades on his field experiences if this is his priority even if itโs not really about the vaccine. But Iโm not in charge.
But there are plenty of nurses and hospital workers who are anti-vax. And those confound me.
Thatโs fine. I was just making a personal note, I am not in charge of the school and cannot affect his grade. My point though was more about how he was not thinking for himself so much, which is an actual goal of higher education.
I disagree. There is zero reason to prima facie fail him for this. His grade should be based on completing assignments, practical demonstration of skills, etc.
How it *could* affect is grade is when he fails to complete a practical assignment because he wasn't allowed in to the training facility without being vaccinated. And that is plenty sufficient - there is no need to heap on additional cultural punishments.
Itโs so bizarre that he didnโt just get vaccinated without telling his mother. What a waste of time. In order to be a nursing student, he would need to have provided proof of vaccination and/or immunity to multiple infectious diseases. Dordtโs own website has a very typical set of vaccine requirements for all students and more typical vaccines required for the nursing program: https://www.dordt.edu/general-uploads/dordtuniversityimmunizationdocumentation.pdf
Evidently his mom is totes fine with MMR, Tetanus, heck even annual flu. Just not Covid? Doesn't make sense, but then again irrational antivax belief is irrational.
In society, there must be a balance between the needs of the individual and the safety and well being of the collective within which he or she lives.
Any imbalance and money is placed on the scale for "fairness".
The more money you've got, the more fairness you can afford!
Not on my 1st cuppa yet, so Iโm not sure Iโm coherent. But then, neither is this idjit.
So apparently, he wasnโt telling the truth. Does that mean he was perjuring himself? Or does it simply mean that he was bringing a frivolous lawsuit? or does it mean he doesnโt believe his religion at all but was merely trying to please Mama so that she would keep the cash flowing?
If so, the latter would make him like every other tele-grifter, but in this case, he was grifting his own mother, whose name I cannot pronounce: Gay-lin, Gah-lin, Gah-lyinโ, what???
Quite apart from the question of religious exemptions to begin withโ if we were treating religion rationally, it wouldnโt be exempting someone from anything except committing what would be crimes in other situations. Things like murder, theft, child abuseโ and thereโs something christonotsees of the the GOPedos could get behindโ those would be valid exemptions.
But vaccines? Nyuhhhuhh. And apparently, his religion did not prevent him from lying, or grifting, or endangering others.
But there is also this: if your religion prevents you from doing a job which has reasonable and rational requirements, then maybe you should just find yourself another kind of a job so that your religion will be neither burden to yourself nor others.
No, that would be too easy. Much easier than pleasing his gorgon of a mother.
๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ก๐๐ฆ, โ๐ ๐ค๐๐ ๐โ๐ก ๐ก๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐กโ๐ ๐ก๐๐ข๐กโ. ๐ท๐๐๐ ๐กโ๐๐ก ๐๐๐๐ โ๐ ๐ค๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐ข๐๐๐๐ โ๐๐๐ ๐๐๐?
Probably not. Courts mostly only care about statements you make to the court. So if he put something on a form for his school, and then in court fessed up that it was inaccurate or a lie, I don't think a typical court is going to pursue that. It's when you say something under court oath and then the court finds out you lied to them, that judges tend to get angry.