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NOGODZ20's avatar

Article 6, Clause 3 of the US Consttution. No religious test for public office. Education is a public office. Such a law as this xtian-based loyalty oath would be unenforceable.

And the US Constitution trumps state constitutions. You lose.

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avis piscivorus's avatar

"And the US Constitution trumps state constitutions. You lose"

And according to the Supreme Court, Trump trumps both constitutions. He wins.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

And until Trump personally removes that document from its display case and rips it to shreds, it is still in place as th law of the land.

I wonder if Security would even allow him to try. Would they draw their weapons and issue a warning? If Security is comprised of MAGAts, would even THEY think that it was a bridge too far. And would they stop him out of patriotism or fear they'd be held accountable if they didn't once Trump is finally gone, one way or another.

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larry parker's avatar

He tried getting an original for the Oval Office. He got a copy.

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Ethereal Fairy's avatar

I believe that was the declaration of Independence, he has no understanding, or use for the constitution.

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larry parker's avatar

I believe you are right. My bad. : )

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Ethereal Fairy's avatar

😉I write things like that all the time.

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jmax's avatar

"And until Trump personally removes that document from its display case and rips it to shreds, it is still in place as th law of the land."

I don't think he would do that, but I can see him showing up at the National Archives with his Sharpie in hand to make any changes he wants.

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RegularJoe's avatar

He can shred the original Constitution and Flag, it doesn't erase the words that were ratified.

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John Boyd's avatar

At some point he's going to have it guilded in fake gold and put on display at Mar-a-lardo, as he has already done with the Resolute Desk.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

That clause in Article VI also mentions a "public trust." I can see where public school teachers constitute a public trust and thus would be involved in that clause.

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Jane in NC's avatar

Public school teachers are covered under those 'holding public office'.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Pre-CISE-ly!

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Stephen Brady's avatar

In a lot of ways, this is performative, but they also hope to get something like this before their 6 Supremes - who would no doubt fish around in Alito's ass for the necessary 14th century quote to overturn the Constitution. edit: fixed typo

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Ethereal Fairy's avatar

That is indeed the accurate source of his "opinions".

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Not according to this:

"While public school teachers are public employees, they are generally not considered “government officials” in the traditional sense. The term “government official” typically implies holding a public office, exercising sovereign power, or engaging in policy-making roles. This classification usually applies to elected or high-level appointed positions within the legislative, executive, or judicial branches of government.

"Teachers primarily perform an instructional role rather than a policy-making or sovereign function. They implement educational policies rather than formulate them. While part of the government workforce and considered government employees, they typically fall outside the specific classification of a “government official” who holds a public office or exercises governmental authority."

https://legalclarity.org/are-teachers-considered-government-officials/

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Jane in NC's avatar

^THIS^

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Old Man Shadow's avatar

"Almost overnight the Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade was in full flower, and Captain Black was enraptured to discover himself spearheading it. He had really hit on something. All the enlisted men and officers on combat duty had to sign a loyalty oath to get their map cases from the intelligence tent, a second loyalty oath to receive their flak suits and parachutes from the parachute tent, a third loyalty oath for Lieutenant Balkington, the motor vehicle officer, to be allowed to ride from the squadron to the airfield in one of the trucks. Every time they turned around there was another loyalty oath to be signed. They signed a loyalty oath to get their pay from the finance officer, to obtain their PX supplies, to have their hair cut by the Italian barbers. To Captain Black, every officer who supported his Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade was a competitor, and he planned and plotted twenty-four hours a day to keep one step ahead. He would stand second to none in his devotion to country. When other officers had followed his urging and introduced loyalty oaths of their own, he went them one better by making every son of a bitch who came to his intelligence tent sign two loyalty oaths, then three, then four; then he introduced the pledge of allegiance, and after that ‘The Star-Spangled Banner,’ one chorus, two choruses, three choruses, four choruses. Each time Captain Black forged ahead of his competitors, he swung upon them scornfully for their failure to follow his example. Each time they followed his example, he retreated with concern and racked his brain for some new stratagem that would enable him to turn upon them scornfully again.

...When they voiced objection, Captain Black replied that people who were loyal would not mind signing all the loyalty oaths they had to. To anyone who questioned the effectiveness of the loyalty oaths, he replied that people who really did owe allegiance to their country would be proud to pledge it as often as he forced them to. And to anyone who questioned the morality, he replied that ‘The Star-Spangled Banner’ was the greatest piece of music ever composed. The more loyalty oaths a person signed, the more loyal he was; to Captain Black it was as simple as that, and he had Corporal Kolodny sign hundreds with his name each day so that he could always prove he was more loyal than anyone else.

‘The important thing is to keep them pledging,’ he explained to his cohorts. ‘It doesn’t matter whether they mean it or not. That’s why they make little kids pledge allegiance even before they know what “pledge” and “allegiance” mean.’"

- Joseph Heller, Catch 22

Small petty men who can only get attention through bullying others.

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Kay-El's avatar

One of the best novels ever.

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Maltnothops's avatar

I’ve read that book more times than any other book in my life. Along about the 8th time, as I was LOLing, my bride asks me how I can possibly still LOL at something I’ve read so much. Because it is brilliantly funny I said.

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Kay-El's avatar

Scathingly so.

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Hannah's avatar

Thank you. Perfect any day. Some of my favorite conversations were between Heller and Vonnegut.

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Jstn Green's avatar

Awesome. Thanks.

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Anri's avatar

"Give me eat."

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Ian Binns's avatar

I’m an associate professor of elementary science education. I teach future elementary teachers how to teach science. I’m also a Christian. There’s no way I’d ever say that oath. And I’ll advise all of my future students to NOT teach in Florida.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

I like your attitude! Rock and roll, Ian!

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Ian Binns's avatar

Thanks for the support. I also focus a lot on science and religion. Especially evolution and other science topics. This stuff is in my wheelhouse.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

My wheelhouse, too. I'm a retired electrical engineer, and I have loved science since I was a kid, watching Mr. Wizard. Science and engineering is a good portion of the reason why the quality of our lives is what it is today.

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Ian Binns's avatar

Exactly

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NOGODZ20's avatar

As they say Down Under: “Good on ya, mate.”

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Charles Newman's avatar

Ever read the entire Christian bible open to its genocide, incest, blood sacrifices and slavery to name a few? The cherry picking that goes on by Christians of the "good book" is incredible. That many believe it's a sin to question the so called word of God is amazing.

The constant fear and punishment Christians believe in is very controlling.

Good luck

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Ian Binns's avatar

Yep, I have. I agree, the cherry-picking is very troubling and dangerous. I can also say that not all Christians interpret the Bible the same way. Personally, I don’t hold to a literal interpretation. It doesn’t make any sense. I’ve had several of my fellow Christians tell me that I’m not a “real” Christian because of my doubts and questions. My response is simple: my faith is between me and God. If God can’t handle my questions and doubts, then what does that say about that person’s view of God?

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Charles Newman's avatar

Then why bother supporting Christianity, another death cult religion? Let oneself be free of the controlling fear and superstitions. It takes a little time but worth the effort. Never having to think about some invisible being that can't be proven to exist. Freely think for oneself.

Good luck

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Ian Binns's avatar

I already freely think for myself. And I’m already free of “controlling fear and superstitions.”

I don’t see the problem here.

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Charles Newman's avatar

One may have thinking freely confused with free thinking. Two different thought patterns.

No problem believe in what one wants.

Enjoy life and the short time here on this planet. Also if one is Mormon, their God will give one another planet to completely rule as a God once time is up here.

Kolob welcomes Mormon men and their families.

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Ian Binns's avatar

This “one” is not confused. While I do appreciate the assumptions you’ve made about me, I encourage you to approach future conversations with curiosity.

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Maltnothops's avatar

Just recently a commenter at Christian Post mentioned some of the biblical atrocities you allude to and a true believer replied saying, “You’re cherry picking.” I responded to the true believer with something like “So you agree that those cherries are there for the picking?” No response from true believer and a few upvotes from other rational people.

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Bensnewlogin's avatar

It’s been a long time since I’ve been called up for jury duty. But one time I was asked to swear on the Bible blah blah truth blah blah nothing but blah blah. I said, “I grant this book no moral authority whatsoever, and swearing on this book would not be the truth.” The judge simply told me I could affirm that my word would be true.

That was the end of it.

Coercing religious belief does not make it religious nor does it make it belief. It just makes it coercion.

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ericc's avatar

Yeah, I don't think (most) courts make a big deal out of affirming instead of swearing. I'll actually guess that most Florida districts won't make a big deal out of it either, and there will be plenty of places where atheist applicants ask if they can just affirm and are told yes.

But it's a big state, with many very conservative districts and probably at least a few atheist teacher applicants willing to throw down about it, so I would expect at least a few test cases to happen pretty quickly.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

We also have a lot of Muslims and Hindus, at least where I live.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

I swear to follow the constitution by reciting this loyalty oath that is unconstitutional.

Nothing to see here.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

How about: I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support, protect, and defend the Constitution and Government of the United States by not reciting this unconstitutional oath.

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Mommadillo's avatar

Want me to swear an oath to your imaginary god? Sure - no problem. Do I consider such an oath binding on me in any way? Nope. Imaginary god means imaginary oath.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

What is the purpose of teachers swearing an oath? Public schools have been around for centuries and we haven’t decided this was required, or even desirable, before.

Add to the fact that Florida is a shitty state in educational rankings and are facing a teacher shortage exasperated by the current state policies that are direct attacks on teachers, students, learning and knowledge, this is only going to make things worse. Well, it’s another drop in the bucket. The state is actively trying to destroy public education because it’s run by the most corrupt, irresponsible, and incompetent party on the planet, the GOP.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

There's that daily Pledge of Allegiance nonsense. The pledge that was created by a Christian Socialist who never included the words "under God" and also employed a Nazi-like salute which wasn’t done away with until December of 1942.

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Maltnothops's avatar

At my kids HS, the pledge was broadcast on the TV in every classroom. Kids could do whatever they wanted. Stand, sit, recite it, ignore it, play in their phones. My kids reported that it was almost universally ignored.

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John Smith's avatar

The nazis salute was revived by the republicans, remember Musk at Republican national convention!

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ericc's avatar

𝑊ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑖𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑝𝑢𝑟𝑝𝑜𝑠𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑡𝑒𝑎𝑐ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑠 𝑠𝑤𝑒𝑎𝑟𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑎𝑛 𝑜𝑎𝑡ℎ?

Well, even trying to pass the legislation is a vote-getter for right wing legislators. Doesn't matter if it works, it shows their constituents they're a true blue conservative. So there's that. Being seen to "pwn the left" is valuable in reelection even if it actually does nothing.

They may also hope to deter some liberal teachers from coming to Florida. Probably at least one of the sponsoring legislators thinks in that sort of simplistic fashion.

Finally, I heard one wag say that the right knows it usually loses in the arena of culture. There is little grassroots support for their values. But since they control many levers of government they fight back the only way they can, i..e. by imposing their values by law.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

That’s all true, but isn’t really what I was asking. It was all political theater, other than that why do we need to have teachers swearing an oath? We don’t. So, we know the legislation is about culture war politics.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Not just once, but twice. No gods involved in that oath and I wasn't struck by lightning where I stood for not invoking the name/word "God."

I'm now 73 and that smiting has yet to occur.

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Bensnewlogin's avatar

Do you remember that crick in your neck that you had? That was God warning you. Watch out for the next time. You could stub your toe.

He is, after all, a small and jealous God.

Very much like his followers.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

"A small and jealous god," indeed ... and more than a little inept!

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Joan the Dork's avatar

Some might even say... 𝘱𝘶𝘯𝘺?

https://c.tenor.com/wbU069eOtu8AAAAd/tenor.gif

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

One would absolutely say, "puny!"

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larry parker's avatar

Smiting by natural causes. It will happen one day.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

YHVH told Adam that if he ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowlwdge he would surely die.

Adam bit down. And true to that god's word, Adam did die...at 930. Looooong after he and Eve left the Garden.

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larry parker's avatar

Pics, or it didn't happen. ; )

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User's avatar
Comment deleted
Nov 13
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NOGODZ20's avatar

Deciding who wins The Big Game just takes it out of him.

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XJC's avatar
Nov 13Edited

As does setting odds in Vegas.

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OMGeneres's avatar

And finding my keys

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Die Anyway's avatar

They want teachers and school staff to swear to uphold the Constitution while the Republican-in-Chief, who has also sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution, violates it every day. Hypocrisy, thy name is Republican.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

So which of the 45,000 Christian sects worldwide has the "right" version of your god, Florida?

We'll wait while you decide amongst yourselves. Try not to engage in fisticuffs over the matter.

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dammit barry's avatar

Gunfights are okay?

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Would that constitute a "Second Amendment solution?"

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dammit barry's avatar

IANAL. Nor am I a judge. ;)

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Floriduh is an SYG state, dontcha know.

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larry parker's avatar

"Mine" says everyone, while clenching fists.

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Kukaan Ei Missään's avatar

"So which of the 45,000 Christian sects worldwide has the "right" version of your god, Florida?"

In logic we have two things, firstly "contradictories", in which one possibility in a set must be true, and all others false.

Secondly, we have "contraries", in which one possibility might be true, but all might be false.

Yours is an example of the latter.

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PhillyT's avatar

Florida and Texas sure love wasting taxpayer dollars on lawsuits just so they can performatively perform and stoke religious outrage.

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Joe King's avatar

In addition to the violations of Article IV and Amendments 1 and 14, what do these Christian Nazionalists rely want?

[𝑃]𝑟𝑜𝑓𝑒𝑠𝑠𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑎𝑙, 𝑖𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑝𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡, 𝑜𝑏𝑗𝑒𝑐𝑡𝑖𝑣𝑒, 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑛𝑜𝑛𝑝𝑎𝑟𝑡𝑖𝑠𝑎𝑛 𝑚𝑎𝑛𝑛𝑒𝑟

Professional seems ok. Independent? Not really. They want the teachers to only use approved curricula, and never anything extra. Objective? If "objective" means treat every bible story as historical fact, then yes, they want "objective". Nonpartisan? To these assholes, nonpartisan means NSGOP approved talking points, and partisan is anything that sounds like Democrats.

𝐼 𝑤𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑓𝑜𝑠𝑡𝑒𝑟 𝑎 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑒𝑐𝑡𝑓𝑢𝑙 𝑙𝑒𝑎𝑟𝑛𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑒𝑛𝑣𝑖𝑟𝑜𝑛𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑎𝑙𝑙 𝑠𝑡𝑢𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑠 𝑤ℎ𝑖𝑐ℎ 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑚𝑜𝑡𝑒𝑠 𝑐𝑟𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑙 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑘𝑖𝑛𝑔, 𝑐𝑖𝑣𝑖𝑐 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑖𝑏𝑖𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑦, 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑙𝑖𝑓𝑒𝑙𝑜𝑛𝑔 𝑙𝑒𝑎𝑟𝑛𝑖𝑛𝑔

Respectful learning environment here means students are never to question the teachers, and always bow to authority. Kind of the opposite of what a respectful environment really should be. They hate critical thinking, mainly because they don't know what it really means. Their idea of critical thinking means don't believe anything that doesn't match their ideology and never focus that skepticism on them. They only threw in lifelong learning because it sounds good. If the students actually became lifelong learners, their support would crumble, and they know it. What they really want is lifelong obedience.

𝐼 𝑤𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑠𝑒𝑟𝑣𝑒 𝑎𝑠 𝑎 𝑝𝑜𝑠𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑣𝑒 𝑟𝑜𝑙𝑒 𝑚𝑜𝑑𝑒𝑙 𝑖𝑛 𝑏𝑜𝑡ℎ 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑑𝑢𝑐𝑡 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑐ℎ𝑎𝑟𝑎𝑐𝑡𝑒𝑟

And here is the real goal: to be able to fire any teacher who whose conduct and character, no matter how objectively positive, doesn't line up with their twisted morality. Gay teacher? Fired. Teacher seen consuming alcohol? Fired. Administration wants to get rid of a teacher? Dig through their social media profile and find a picture from when they did something young and dumb. Can't be a positive role model by doing something stupid!

The mandatory "so help.me God" at the end is just the icing on this Christian Nationalist shit cake.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

The WORDS say ONE thing. The way they want to INTERPRET those words says entirely something else.

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Larry Erickson's avatar

The interpretation is the key. Kinda like the Bible.

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Hyder Simpson's avatar

“𝐼 𝑤𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑠𝑒𝑟𝑣𝑒 𝑎𝑠 𝑎 𝑝𝑜𝑠𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑣𝑒 𝑟𝑜𝑙𝑒 𝑚𝑜𝑑𝑒𝑙 𝑖𝑛 𝑏𝑜𝑡ℎ 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑑𝑢𝑐𝑡 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑐ℎ𝑎𝑟𝑎𝑐𝑡𝑒𝑟

And here is the real goal: to be able to fire any teacher who whose conduct and character, no matter how objectively positive, doesn't line up with their twisted morality. Gay teacher? Fired. Teacher seen consuming alcohol? Fired. Administration wants to get rid of a teacher? Dig through their social media profile and find a picture from when they did something young and dumb. Can't be a positive role model by doing something stupid!”

This jumped out at me too. But then I grew up in rural Alabama, a “right to work” state where I learned early to spot the various ways my supposedly good god-fearing neighbors justified their poor treatment of anyone not exactly like them.

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Linda's avatar

🎯

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

𝐼 𝑤𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑓𝑜𝑠𝑡𝑒𝑟 𝑎 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑒𝑐𝑡𝑓𝑢𝑙 𝑙𝑒𝑎𝑟𝑛𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑒𝑛𝑣𝑖𝑟𝑜𝑛𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑎𝑙𝑙 𝑠𝑡𝑢𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑠 except for the LGBTQ students.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Florida's Unenforceable Constitution Killer.

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wreck's avatar

"I will support, protect, and defend the Constitution and Government of the United States"

...by swearing an unconstitutional oath. Heckuva job there, Florida Mans.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Seems the FL legislature needs a refresher course on the Constitution and all it entails.

To that legislature: If you can't pass a test on the Constitution, maybe YOU are the ones that shouldn't be holding office.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

Well... we 𝘢𝘳𝘦 talking about the state that decided to deal with climate change by making it illegal to talk about climate change. Reality doesn't hold much influence over the Florida legislature (well, it probably will when the waves are lapping at the steps of the statehouse in Tallahassee, but I wouldn't put money on that happening much sooner).

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wreck's avatar

That will work about as well as not talking about the Epstein Files (HA HA Donny Pedo!!!). Or talking about them in the White House Situation Room.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/exclusive-trump-administration-holds-situation-room-meeting-over-house-effort-to-force-release-of-all-of-doj-s-epstein-files/ar-AA1QiWQ6

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Maltnothops's avatar

Likely the state most at risk from climate change. Strange that.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Oooooooooooooooooookay, then! That was good for a laugh! 🤣🤣🤣

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