"When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not care to support, so that its Professors are oblig'd to call for the help of the Civil Power, 'tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
-- Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Dr. Ricard Price (a Christian) dated October 9th, 1780
When it comes to this subject, I always lead off with those words of wisdom from that wily Deist Franklin.
A Trump appointed judge pretzels their logic to give a veneer of legal justification to the hole in the wall of separation that SCOTUS made. That tracks. Typical fundie Christian Nazionalist. Equating a discriminatory statement of faith with a hypothetical statement of reason. It's almost as if the Christian Nazionalists want to prohibit thinking.
It’s sad that the judge cannot see the forest for the trees here. If this issue would be viewed from the lens that the beneficiaries of this funding were the students rather than the schools, then there wouldn’t be an issue at all. The money does benefit the schools, but that isn’t what the money is for. Taxpayer money belongs to all the people in the tax base, this case the state, it is set aside for high school students to have the opportunity to gain college level knowledge, it is given directly to the schools but the schools must provide the product to the students in return for the money. If the schools deny student access, then the money doesn’t apply to them. I’m not giving a contractor money if he isn’t going to do the work I ask of him. Even if he says it’s against his religion. You only get paid for what you do.
The schools aren’t the intended beneficiaries. They are only the contractors. The students are the beneficiaries. That goes for the first amendment as well. The first amendment is about individual rights not organizations, no matter what they want citizens united to say. This is a government function, the schools are acting in loco governmentis and therefore cannot be discriminating against students in regards to protected class, including religion. Their first amendment rights are not being violated since they are playing government in this instance. The constitution, particularly the bill of rights, is a document restricting the government, not giving it rights over citizens. This is so fucking obvious, it’s too bad there are judges that are too corrupt to see this.
Anyway, the rights of the schools are not the rights the courts should be focusing on, the students’ rights are the rights that are being trampled here and the courts don’t care.
I have a feeling the FFRF are going to be very busy for the next few years. And that the percentage of cases they win is going to look like a ski slope despite the great work the are doing.
But unlike poor King Cnut, somebody has to at least try to hold back the tide. The very fabric of the US is being torn apart and the First Amendment is on the front line of this war. Freedom from religion and freedom of speech for individuals and the press especially.
These fine folks need to reevaluate their values. Since that will never happen, the only path forward is to TAX them!
“I don't know how you feel, but I'm pretty sick of church people. You know what they ought to do with churches? Tax them. If holy people are so interested in politics, government, and public policy, let them pay the price of admission like everybody else. The Catholic Church alone could wipe out the national debt if all you did was tax their real estate.”
“The statements simply ask students to affirm the schools’ religious beliefs for the purpose of upholding their Christian communities.”
Why? Are your beliefs that weak that you need children to comfort your decisions to believe in them? Is your Christian community that fragile that a kid can destroy it all with a word?
You have a great opportunity to prove your faith and bring more into the fold by inviting people who aren’t willing to sign this into your campus and show them how you Christian so they might find the value in it. But no, you chose to be exactly what we all think of a lot of Christians, overbearing, ignorant, cruel, and authoritarian. Good for you.
As I have posted before, the fundamental problem with the right wing courts, SCOTUS leading the backward way, is putting some groups mythical beliefs, having no evidence in support, over the rights of real live humans to not be discriminated against. Irrational Beliefs over flesh and blood. This demonstrates how bad religious beliefs have F U intelligent and educated people’s ability to think rationally for justice and equality under law. We will never solve the climate crisis or avoid nuclear war and have peace and justice in our world as long as mythical dogmas are given equal or greater standing against rational and logical evidence based arguments.
"Now, consider a hypothetical secular private college that participates in the PSEO program. If that secular school required that all PSEO applicants attest to “honor reason,” “seek reason‐centered community,” and “stand together against all that rationalism clearly condemns,” such an admissions requirement would seemingly not be proscribed by the Faith Statement Ban."
I can play this game too. Once again, how many judges would pass a basic Constitutional law test ?
"Consider an hypothetical Muslim private college that participate in the PSEO program. If that Muslim required that all PSEO participants attest to "deny the divin aspect of Jesus Christ", "follow the 5 pillars of Islam", "and respect a strict gender based separation between students" such an admission requirement would infringe on the religious liberty and first amendment rights of the students. It's... Bla bla bla.
"We believe the district court is wrong. This law is neutral and generally applicable. It simply requires that all colleges receiving taxpayer funds treat students equally, regardless of religion, gender, or sexual orientation. No school should get a license to discriminate on the public dime."
How funny that the allegedly best democracy in the world can't do what some European countries do without complaints from anyone.
We don’t live in a democracy unfortunately. Just look at the electoral college and its racist origins. A lot of compromises were made and that’s how we got here with Dear Leader.
Ok, University of Northwestern–St. Paul and Crown College, how would you handle a gay atheist student who signs your statement of faith just to take advantage of your program? Would you expel them? Deny full credit for the courses they take? Ban them from the campus? How serious is your statement of faith?
I'm sure they'd be happy to receive the funding and not supply the benefit. So yep, I think once they've got the State's money in hand they'd have no problem "being serious" and expelling the student.
I mean Jesus said it best: "Caesar cannot unfairly restrict revenue streams from the faithful, Caesar must afford the same opportunities of profit to all that reside in the Empire."
You can't get clearer than that. Thanks imaginary, Chill Dude.
From the Gospel of Steve. The Nicene Council rejected it along with some of the other writings because Steve, being a huge stoner, really focused on surfing. Once Jesus got an endowment from the local centurion, Steve was set up in a hut on the beach with plenty of herb, beer, and dates just to wait for those tasty waves. And the Council didn't want to be seen endorsing entitlements.
Yes it excludes people who don't want to take that oath. The law should say that the school cannot impose ANY ideological test on the HS applicant, period. It shouldn't matter if the statement is "puppies are cute" or "kindness is kind," they shouldn't do it. Unless the oath has some obvious operational or educational justification (like, "I agree not to cheat"), no oaths.
Not that it will matter with this SCOTUS. The judge is right IMO to see how their precedents apply to this case. Even with my revised law, this SCOTUS would say that this unconstitutionally excludes religious schools. So I think if the state wants to preserve the program without handing money to bigoted schools, the "only public schools" option is the one they will have to go with.
But as a general concept, the state should not be in the business of deciding some ideological tests are okay to receive a public benefit but others aren't. Not 'inclusive okay, exclusive not okay.' Not 'secular ideologies okay, religious ideologies not okay.' No ideological tests for a government benefit, period.
And yes, this means that (IMO) a bigoted student should be able to use the money to take a class at a liberal school just like a liberal students should be able to use the money to take a class at a bigoted school. No ideology tests applies to the students one doesn't like, too. It's not a hard concept.
Religion was never about equality, justice, tolerance, acceptance, and freedom for all; it is about power and control (the ability to set the social norms for an individual and society) over people (the clergy and the leaders being exempted from the social norms set for everyone else); any statement to the contrary is a lie.
I would think Christian schools would want "the lost" to come and learn about Jesus. Haha... oh, I would think that if I didn't know them. They want power... that statement of faith gives it to them. They can wield it against any kid that doesn't fall in line and conform.
I’d love to see more Christian schools that are playing by rules stand up against the schools that are possibly destroying their freedom to participate in the future? Again, where are all these so-called “real Christians”? I can’t hear them. They will certainly cry persecution when they are all taxed. Too little too late.
"When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not care to support, so that its Professors are oblig'd to call for the help of the Civil Power, 'tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
-- Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Dr. Ricard Price (a Christian) dated October 9th, 1780
When it comes to this subject, I always lead off with those words of wisdom from that wily Deist Franklin.
A Trump appointed judge pretzels their logic to give a veneer of legal justification to the hole in the wall of separation that SCOTUS made. That tracks. Typical fundie Christian Nazionalist. Equating a discriminatory statement of faith with a hypothetical statement of reason. It's almost as if the Christian Nazionalists want to prohibit thinking.
𝐼𝑡’𝑠 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑒𝑑𝑜𝑚. 𝐼𝑡’𝑠 𝑡𝑎𝑥𝑝𝑎𝑦𝑒𝑟-𝑠𝑢𝑏𝑠𝑖𝑑𝑖𝑧𝑒𝑑 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑗𝑢𝑑𝑖𝑐𝑒 𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑢𝑚𝑏𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑙𝑎 𝑜𝑓 𝑓𝑎𝑖𝑡ℎ.
All because they want to force everyone to conform to their narrow little boxes.
It’s sad that the judge cannot see the forest for the trees here. If this issue would be viewed from the lens that the beneficiaries of this funding were the students rather than the schools, then there wouldn’t be an issue at all. The money does benefit the schools, but that isn’t what the money is for. Taxpayer money belongs to all the people in the tax base, this case the state, it is set aside for high school students to have the opportunity to gain college level knowledge, it is given directly to the schools but the schools must provide the product to the students in return for the money. If the schools deny student access, then the money doesn’t apply to them. I’m not giving a contractor money if he isn’t going to do the work I ask of him. Even if he says it’s against his religion. You only get paid for what you do.
The schools aren’t the intended beneficiaries. They are only the contractors. The students are the beneficiaries. That goes for the first amendment as well. The first amendment is about individual rights not organizations, no matter what they want citizens united to say. This is a government function, the schools are acting in loco governmentis and therefore cannot be discriminating against students in regards to protected class, including religion. Their first amendment rights are not being violated since they are playing government in this instance. The constitution, particularly the bill of rights, is a document restricting the government, not giving it rights over citizens. This is so fucking obvious, it’s too bad there are judges that are too corrupt to see this.
Anyway, the rights of the schools are not the rights the courts should be focusing on, the students’ rights are the rights that are being trampled here and the courts don’t care.
I have a feeling the FFRF are going to be very busy for the next few years. And that the percentage of cases they win is going to look like a ski slope despite the great work the are doing.
But unlike poor King Cnut, somebody has to at least try to hold back the tide. The very fabric of the US is being torn apart and the First Amendment is on the front line of this war. Freedom from religion and freedom of speech for individuals and the press especially.
These fine folks need to reevaluate their values. Since that will never happen, the only path forward is to TAX them!
“I don't know how you feel, but I'm pretty sick of church people. You know what they ought to do with churches? Tax them. If holy people are so interested in politics, government, and public policy, let them pay the price of admission like everybody else. The Catholic Church alone could wipe out the national debt if all you did was tax their real estate.”
-George Carlin
“The statements simply ask students to affirm the schools’ religious beliefs for the purpose of upholding their Christian communities.”
Why? Are your beliefs that weak that you need children to comfort your decisions to believe in them? Is your Christian community that fragile that a kid can destroy it all with a word?
You have a great opportunity to prove your faith and bring more into the fold by inviting people who aren’t willing to sign this into your campus and show them how you Christian so they might find the value in it. But no, you chose to be exactly what we all think of a lot of Christians, overbearing, ignorant, cruel, and authoritarian. Good for you.
"Is your Christian community that fragile that a kid can destroy it all with a word?"
Yes, they are the real snowflakes.
As I have posted before, the fundamental problem with the right wing courts, SCOTUS leading the backward way, is putting some groups mythical beliefs, having no evidence in support, over the rights of real live humans to not be discriminated against. Irrational Beliefs over flesh and blood. This demonstrates how bad religious beliefs have F U intelligent and educated people’s ability to think rationally for justice and equality under law. We will never solve the climate crisis or avoid nuclear war and have peace and justice in our world as long as mythical dogmas are given equal or greater standing against rational and logical evidence based arguments.
Xtians are the worst fucking people. This is why we have a fascist dick-tater now.
They went from damning the Antichrist to exalting him.
They were always going to. It is not like they haven't had these opinions for at least a century. It is just that it has become mainstream now.
And when Trump is done, they are not going to change their opinions.
"Now, consider a hypothetical secular private college that participates in the PSEO program. If that secular school required that all PSEO applicants attest to “honor reason,” “seek reason‐centered community,” and “stand together against all that rationalism clearly condemns,” such an admissions requirement would seemingly not be proscribed by the Faith Statement Ban."
I can play this game too. Once again, how many judges would pass a basic Constitutional law test ?
"Consider an hypothetical Muslim private college that participate in the PSEO program. If that Muslim required that all PSEO participants attest to "deny the divin aspect of Jesus Christ", "follow the 5 pillars of Islam", "and respect a strict gender based separation between students" such an admission requirement would infringe on the religious liberty and first amendment rights of the students. It's... Bla bla bla.
"We believe the district court is wrong. This law is neutral and generally applicable. It simply requires that all colleges receiving taxpayer funds treat students equally, regardless of religion, gender, or sexual orientation. No school should get a license to discriminate on the public dime."
How funny that the allegedly best democracy in the world can't do what some European countries do without complaints from anyone.
We haven't been the best democracy in the world since at least Reagan, mainly due to Christian Fucking Privilege.
Nixon...
We don’t live in a democracy unfortunately. Just look at the electoral college and its racist origins. A lot of compromises were made and that’s how we got here with Dear Leader.
𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑠 𝑠𝑖𝑚𝑝𝑙𝑦 𝑎𝑠𝑘 𝑠𝑡𝑢𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑠 𝑡𝑜 𝑎𝑓𝑓𝑖𝑟𝑚 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙𝑠’ 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑓𝑠 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑝𝑢𝑟𝑝𝑜𝑠𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑢𝑝ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑑𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑖𝑟 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛 𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑒𝑠.
Ok, University of Northwestern–St. Paul and Crown College, how would you handle a gay atheist student who signs your statement of faith just to take advantage of your program? Would you expel them? Deny full credit for the courses they take? Ban them from the campus? How serious is your statement of faith?
Religion is a display of fear of "the other." Always has been.
I'm sure they'd be happy to receive the funding and not supply the benefit. So yep, I think once they've got the State's money in hand they'd have no problem "being serious" and expelling the student.
The university would take the money, but make the student’s life miserable so that student would quit
So, just serious enough to profit. Yep, that tracks.
Rule of law and justice are dead in the U.S. Until the people take them back. It won't be peaceful.
“In most countries corruption involves breaking the law. In the US too often it is the law.“
I mean Jesus said it best: "Caesar cannot unfairly restrict revenue streams from the faithful, Caesar must afford the same opportunities of profit to all that reside in the Empire."
You can't get clearer than that. Thanks imaginary, Chill Dude.
*checks gospels for that quote* ;)
From the Gospel of Steve. The Nicene Council rejected it along with some of the other writings because Steve, being a huge stoner, really focused on surfing. Once Jesus got an endowment from the local centurion, Steve was set up in a hut on the beach with plenty of herb, beer, and dates just to wait for those tasty waves. And the Council didn't want to be seen endorsing entitlements.
Well Stephen is a version of Steve. And he was definitely stoned.
XD
The Bible calls us to be good stewards of the Earth. That means resources and money is a proxy for that.
So that applies in religious and secular life.
𝐼𝑡’𝑠 𝑎 𝑏𝑖𝑧𝑎𝑟𝑟𝑒 𝑒𝑥𝑎𝑚𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑏𝑒𝑐𝑎𝑢𝑠𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝐷𝑒𝑐𝑙𝑎𝑟𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑒𝑥𝑐𝑙𝑢𝑑𝑒𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑦𝑜𝑛𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜 𝑖𝑠𝑛’𝑡 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛 𝑤ℎ𝑖𝑙𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑓𝑖𝑐𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑎𝑙 𝑠𝑒𝑐𝑢𝑙𝑎𝑟 𝐷𝑒𝑐𝑙𝑎𝑟𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑒𝑥𝑐𝑙𝑢𝑑𝑒𝑠 𝑛𝑜𝑏𝑜𝑑𝑦.
Yes it excludes people who don't want to take that oath. The law should say that the school cannot impose ANY ideological test on the HS applicant, period. It shouldn't matter if the statement is "puppies are cute" or "kindness is kind," they shouldn't do it. Unless the oath has some obvious operational or educational justification (like, "I agree not to cheat"), no oaths.
Not that it will matter with this SCOTUS. The judge is right IMO to see how their precedents apply to this case. Even with my revised law, this SCOTUS would say that this unconstitutionally excludes religious schools. So I think if the state wants to preserve the program without handing money to bigoted schools, the "only public schools" option is the one they will have to go with.
But as a general concept, the state should not be in the business of deciding some ideological tests are okay to receive a public benefit but others aren't. Not 'inclusive okay, exclusive not okay.' Not 'secular ideologies okay, religious ideologies not okay.' No ideological tests for a government benefit, period.
And yes, this means that (IMO) a bigoted student should be able to use the money to take a class at a liberal school just like a liberal students should be able to use the money to take a class at a bigoted school. No ideology tests applies to the students one doesn't like, too. It's not a hard concept.
Why can't xtians do what their Jesus tells them to pray to his father in heaven in Jesus' name to get what they need? All it takes is 2 or 3 to agree.
What's the matter, don't they believe what their savior said? Guess they lack even a mustard seed size of faith.
Religion was never about equality, justice, tolerance, acceptance, and freedom for all; it is about power and control (the ability to set the social norms for an individual and society) over people (the clergy and the leaders being exempted from the social norms set for everyone else); any statement to the contrary is a lie.
I would think Christian schools would want "the lost" to come and learn about Jesus. Haha... oh, I would think that if I didn't know them. They want power... that statement of faith gives it to them. They can wield it against any kid that doesn't fall in line and conform.
I’d love to see more Christian schools that are playing by rules stand up against the schools that are possibly destroying their freedom to participate in the future? Again, where are all these so-called “real Christians”? I can’t hear them. They will certainly cry persecution when they are all taxed. Too little too late.