268 Comments
User's avatar
NOGODZ20's avatar

"When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not care to support, so that its Professors are oblig'd to call for the help of the Civil Power, 'tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

-- Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Dr. Richard Price (a Christian) dated October 9th, 1780

When it comes to this subject, I always lead off with those words of wisdom from that wily Deist Franklin.

Matri's avatar

I keep saying, the continued existence of “these” Christians is absolute proof their so-called god DOESN’T exist.

Joe King's avatar

A Trump appointed judge pretzels their logic to give a veneer of legal justification to the hole in the wall of separation that SCOTUS made. That tracks. Typical fundie Christian Nazionalist. Equating a discriminatory statement of faith with a hypothetical statement of reason. It's almost as if the Christian Nazionalists want to prohibit thinking.

𝐼𝑡’𝑠 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑒𝑑𝑜𝑚. 𝐼𝑡’𝑠 𝑡𝑎𝑥𝑝𝑎𝑦𝑒𝑟-𝑠𝑢𝑏𝑠𝑖𝑑𝑖𝑧𝑒𝑑 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑗𝑢𝑑𝑖𝑐𝑒 𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑢𝑚𝑏𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑙𝑎 𝑜𝑓 𝑓𝑎𝑖𝑡ℎ.

All because they want to force everyone to conform to their narrow little boxes.

Walt Svirsky's avatar

“All because they want to force everyone to conform to their narrow little boxes.”

There it is. Not Jeebus. Not “love thy neighbor,” or any of the other extinct religious ways, taught by the man himself. Power and control.

ericc's avatar

There's a bit of pretzel logic but that's not really the problem. However weird the pathway the judge took to get there, the end conclusion is consistent with SCOTUS' recent precedents and thus a 'correct' lower court decision that upholds current judicial rules. It's the SCOTUS-level decision that's the problem here.

Minnesota was fighting the last war not the present one. There is no more state/local government forcing contractors who take their money to follow government non-discrimination rules. It's now: allow contractors of all ideologies with their own private rules to take the money, or allow none. Maybe, *maybe* you can get away with some sort of contractor criteria which is entirely separate from religious claims, but that's touch and go and certainly Minnesota's law calling out *faith* statements as the specific one thing it doesn't allow was not going to pass SCOTUS muster.

Matri's avatar

The Trump-packed POSCOTUS.

Maltnothops's avatar

I appreciate the analysis. If memory serves, you are an attorney?

Linda's avatar

These fine folks need to reevaluate their values. Since that will never happen, the only path forward is to TAX them!

“I don't know how you feel, but I'm pretty sick of church people. You know what they ought to do with churches? Tax them. If holy people are so interested in politics, government, and public policy, let them pay the price of admission like everybody else. The Catholic Church alone could wipe out the national debt if all you did was tax their real estate.”

-George Carlin

Walt Svirsky's avatar

The time has never been better for listening to George Carlin.

Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

“The statements simply ask students to affirm the schools’ religious beliefs for the purpose of upholding their Christian communities.”

Why? Are your beliefs that weak that you need children to comfort your decisions to believe in them? Is your Christian community that fragile that a kid can destroy it all with a word?

You have a great opportunity to prove your faith and bring more into the fold by inviting people who aren’t willing to sign this into your campus and show them how you Christian so they might find the value in it. But no, you chose to be exactly what we all think of a lot of Christians, overbearing, ignorant, cruel, and authoritarian. Good for you.

Boreal's avatar

"Is your Christian community that fragile that a kid can destroy it all with a word?"

Yes, they are the real snowflakes.

Matri's avatar

They’ve always been the snowflakes all along, fear and weakness rebranded as “courage” and “ strength”, incompetence as “qualifications”, paranoia and bullshit as “instincts” and “intelligence”.

Walt Svirsky's avatar

Yes! Their beliefs ARE THAT WEAK.

Phyllis S's avatar

Exactly right. 100%.

Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

It’s sad that the judge cannot see the forest for the trees here. If this issue would be viewed from the lens that the beneficiaries of this funding were the students rather than the schools, then there wouldn’t be an issue at all. The money does benefit the schools, but that isn’t what the money is for. Taxpayer money belongs to all the people in the tax base, this case the state, it is set aside for high school students to have the opportunity to gain college level knowledge, it is given directly to the schools but the schools must provide the product to the students in return for the money. If the schools deny student access, then the money doesn’t apply to them. I’m not giving a contractor money if he isn’t going to do the work I ask of him. Even if he says it’s against his religion. You only get paid for what you do.

The schools aren’t the intended beneficiaries. They are only the contractors. The students are the beneficiaries. That goes for the first amendment as well. The first amendment is about individual rights not organizations, no matter what they want citizens united to say. This is a government function, the schools are acting in loco governmentis and therefore cannot be discriminating against students in regards to protected class, including religion. Their first amendment rights are not being violated since they are playing government in this instance. The constitution, particularly the bill of rights, is a document restricting the government, not giving it rights over citizens. This is so fucking obvious, it’s too bad there are judges that are too corrupt to see this.

Anyway, the rights of the schools are not the rights the courts should be focusing on, the students’ rights are the rights that are being trampled here and the courts don’t care.

Walt Svirsky's avatar

I think those corrupt MAGAT judges see things clearly. They are not as stoopid as your average, run of the mill MAGAT.

Corrupt is the operative word. They have intentionally traded their loyalty to the Constitution for personal gain, be it power or wealth. They are the weak. They are the enemy.

Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Exhibit 1 : cannon fodder in florihell. She is both.

Matri's avatar

By deliberately delaying Trump’s 34 sentences, she started this whole thing.

Chris Titchmarsh's avatar

I have a feeling the FFRF are going to be very busy for the next few years. And that the percentage of cases they win is going to look like a ski slope despite the great work the are doing.

But unlike poor King Cnut, somebody has to at least try to hold back the tide. The very fabric of the US is being torn apart and the First Amendment is on the front line of this war. Freedom from religion and freedom of speech for individuals and the press especially.

Penfist's avatar

Rule of law and justice are dead in the U.S. Until the people take them back. It won't be peaceful.

Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

"Now, consider a hypothetical secular private college that participates in the PSEO program. If that secular school required that all PSEO applicants attest to “honor reason,” “seek reason‐centered community,” and “stand together against all that rationalism clearly condemns,” such an admissions requirement would seemingly not be proscribed by the Faith Statement Ban."

I can play this game too. Once again, how many judges would pass a basic Constitutional law test ?

"Consider an hypothetical Muslim private college that participate in the PSEO program. If that Muslim required that all PSEO participants attest to "deny the divin aspect of Jesus Christ", "follow the 5 pillars of Islam", "and respect a strict gender based separation between students" such an admission requirement would infringe on the religious liberty and first amendment rights of the students. It's... Bla bla bla.

"We believe the district court is wrong. This law is neutral and generally applicable. It simply requires that all colleges receiving taxpayer funds treat students equally, regardless of religion, gender, or sexual orientation. No school should get a license to discriminate on the public dime."

How funny that the allegedly best democracy in the world can't do what some European countries do without complaints from anyone.

Joe King's avatar

We haven't been the best democracy in the world since at least Reagan, mainly due to Christian Fucking Privilege.

Joe King's avatar

Eisenhower. His administration was the one that inserted "under God" into the pledge.

Runfastandwin's avatar

otoh he did get the interstate freeway system going.

Mary Maguire's avatar

DDE also warned of "the military-industrial complex."

Runfastandwin's avatar

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed"

Troublesh00ter's avatar

ONLY because he got the idea from the German Autobahn.

Linda's avatar

We don’t live in a democracy unfortunately. Just look at the electoral college and its racist origins. A lot of compromises were made and that’s how we got here with Dear Leader.

Walt Svirsky's avatar

Mostly because Abe Lincoln, the driving force behind “All men are created equal,” in America, was murdered by the South. Many of the principles the North fought so valiantly for, were cast aside by his racist successor, Andrew Johnson. The anti-democratic fuckery goes back that far!

Crowscage's avatar

This time the boot stays on treasonous confederate necks until they cease to foul the air with their breath.

Stephen Brady's avatar

We are up to our eyelashes in reichwing religionists over here. They are determined to thrust a theofascist state on the whole Country.

Joe King's avatar

𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑠 𝑠𝑖𝑚𝑝𝑙𝑦 𝑎𝑠𝑘 𝑠𝑡𝑢𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑠 𝑡𝑜 𝑎𝑓𝑓𝑖𝑟𝑚 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙𝑠’ 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑓𝑠 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑝𝑢𝑟𝑝𝑜𝑠𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑢𝑝ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑑𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑖𝑟 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛 𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑒𝑠.

Ok, University of Northwestern–St. Paul and Crown College, how would you handle a gay atheist student who signs your statement of faith just to take advantage of your program? Would you expel them? Deny full credit for the courses they take? Ban them from the campus? How serious is your statement of faith?

NOGODZ20's avatar

Religion is a display of fear of "the other." Always has been.

Stephen Brady's avatar

It is all about creating an in-group and an out-group - you know, those people. The ones our one, true ghod is sending straight to Hell. Religion is one of the most powerful forces for disruption of civil society there is.

Matri's avatar

“For good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

- Steven Weinberg

ericc's avatar

I'm sure they'd be happy to receive the funding and not supply the benefit. So yep, I think once they've got the State's money in hand they'd have no problem "being serious" and expelling the student.

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Aug 26, 2025
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Matri's avatar

From the people who cares fuck-all about “human” laws? They’re just doing “the godly thing”.

Whitney's avatar

"You knew what I was when you picked me up." - The Snake

Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

No. They would claim that it is the student who breached the contract.

XJC's avatar

Christian math class: 1 + 1 = Jesus. The answer is correct. Because these are irrational numbers.

Matri's avatar

Imagine your faith being SO WEAK that you have to force others to acknowledge it, and imagine being SO NARCISSISTIC that you think it’s a good thing to announce it to the world.

Maltnothops's avatar

That’s what I would do if I were a student and my only option was one of the statements of faith schools. I’d play by their rules — their rules being “rig the game”.

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Aug 26, 2025
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Joe King's avatar

So, just serious enough to profit. Yep, that tracks.

XJC's avatar

It's a win-win for God and his faithful believers. What's wrong with that?

Life On A Pale Blue Dot 🔵's avatar

As I have posted before, the fundamental problem with the right wing courts, SCOTUS leading the backward way, is putting some groups mythical beliefs, having no evidence in support, over the rights of real live humans to not be discriminated against. Irrational Beliefs over flesh and blood. This demonstrates how bad religious beliefs have F U intelligent and educated people’s ability to think rationally for justice and equality under law. We will never solve the climate crisis or avoid nuclear war and have peace and justice in our world as long as mythical dogmas are given equal or greater standing against rational and logical evidence based arguments.

Boreal's avatar

Xtians are the worst fucking people. This is why we have a fascist dick-tater now.

NOGODZ20's avatar

They went from damning the Antichrist to exalting him.

Chris Titchmarsh's avatar

They were always going to. It is not like they haven't had these opinions for at least a century. It is just that it has become mainstream now.

And when Trump is done, they are not going to change their opinions.

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Aug 26, 2025
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Stephen Brady's avatar

Because the reichwing propaganda machine is working 24/7 to undo all repair efforts.

Walt Svirsky's avatar

And my gawd, the tithing!

Kay-El's avatar

If you want to enter my house, you must sign a statement that says no religious bullshit may be spoken here. Welp, that leaves out the holy troller riff-raff.

Boreal's avatar

We had this sign on our old wooden front door. When we replaced it with steel I didn't put it back up but thinking about getting one as a magnet.

https://ibb.co/Y7VrHqds

Troublesh00ter's avatar

As Arte Johnson would say, "That's a real goodie!"

Boreal's avatar

It worked with Mormons but not JoHos.

Kay-El's avatar

Are the latter not as smart or less able to take a big fucking hint? 🤔

Boreal's avatar

Not sure but they left quickly after I talked to them.

Kay-El's avatar

Scared the (be)Jesus out of their talking points. 😂

User's avatar
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Aug 26, 2025
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Kay-El's avatar

As BHDM noted, I bought a pentagram and a sign with a list of NO’s. Sometimes they work, sometimes I have to use a 2x4.

Kay-El's avatar

A slugger is definitely better. Easier grip.

Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Clicky ba – a cricket bat wound with copper wire in the hands of some old-fashioned hero's sidekick. The Wolf of Kabul. That would certainly have a certain impact.

Clicky-ba thundered, and men with crushed heads squirmed on the path. Dreadful sounds echoed up the cliffs as the vanguard of Yahaw Khan's army swung this way and that, retreating and advancing in turns ... In sheer desperation they attacked, but found themselves opposed not only by Chung, but by the twin daggers of the Wolf.

NOGODZ20's avatar

When I was living at home, we had a NO SOLICITORS sign at the front door. JWs turned up anyway (once with their kids in tow).

I finally put a stop to it by telling them I was an atheist. They didn't say a word. Just left. They never returned. They must have spread the word.

Troublesh00ter's avatar

I've had JWs showing up here since we moved here 16 years ago. I'm always polite, but I don't tolerate BS. Shortly, we'll be moving south of here, and I'm wondering if the local Kingdom Hall will figure that we're fresh meat.

[TS smiles to himself] Dey don't know me vewwy well, do dey?

Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Isn't the first question they ask you in the South – "What church do you attend?"?

Troublesh00ter's avatar

Not really THAT far south. Massillon is roughly an hour south of Cleveland. Sadly, it's considerably redder than where we've been.

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Aug 26, 2025
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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

I remember telling one of them I was a secular humanist – I think they were a Mormon. He said "I've never heard of that religion."

Troublesh00ter's avatar

Okay ... THAT was disturbing...

Boreal's avatar

I am thankful I have no offspring that will have to try to survive in this new world of fascism and climate destruction.

Troublesh00ter's avatar

As you may know from previous posts here, I have a daughter. Love her to pieces, and she's damned sharp ... but the shit show she's facing? DAMN...

Boreal's avatar

I have immense sympathy. I have a niece and nephew. When the shit hits the fan, I will likely be dust in the wind. I hate this fucking timeline.

Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Ah well, Florida will be a lot smaller which may be a blessing.

Maine Skeptic's avatar

Has anyone else noticed that MAGA Christians are handing over Christianity to the federal government, after all these years of hating the government on principle? These MAGA Christianity committees that police whether or not Christians in our federal agencies have been properly submitted to... I don't think they're going to like how that turns out.

Maltnothops's avatar

And one of the very interesting aspects of MAGA Christians relying on the federal government is their repeated insistence that that 1A applies ONLY to the federal government.

Logic. How does it work?

Maltnothops's avatar

I have noticed that too.

Holytape's avatar

The solution is very simple. If you want to change this, simply start a school that's religious statement is that "Jesus is gay."

E.A. Blair's avatar

Well, he did spend three years hanging around with twelve guys.

Maltnothops's avatar

One of the certifiable nutso commenters at Christian Post recently asserted that the disciples were 6 men and 6 women. They were couples. I had interacted with that commenter before and wasn’t up for another round of bafflegab.

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Aug 26, 2025
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NOGODZ20's avatar

John (The Beloved) was a donkey? 😉

And wasn't John underage?

Matri's avatar

Jesus rode his ass into all the cities. Tell me that’s not him bringing orgies all over the place!

Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Was he over 13 (Bar mitzvah) ? Or 14* ?

* First age of majority (the other is 25) for Roman citizens. No idea if it applied to Jews.

NOGODZ20's avatar

He was probably a teenager.

Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

At that time, that would have made of him a legal adult.

painedumonde's avatar

I mean Jesus said it best: "Caesar cannot unfairly restrict revenue streams from the faithful, Caesar must afford the same opportunities of profit to all that reside in the Empire."

You can't get clearer than that. Thanks imaginary, Chill Dude.

NOGODZ20's avatar

*checks gospels for that quote* ;)

painedumonde's avatar

From the Gospel of Steve. The Nicene Council rejected it along with some of the other writings because Steve, being a huge stoner, really focused on surfing. Once Jesus got an endowment from the local centurion, Steve was set up in a hut on the beach with plenty of herb, beer, and dates just to wait for those tasty waves. And the Council didn't want to be seen endorsing entitlements.

Chris Titchmarsh's avatar

Well Stephen is a version of Steve. And he was definitely stoned.

Chris Titchmarsh's avatar

The Bible calls us to be good stewards of the Earth. That means resources and money is a proxy for that.

So that applies in religious and secular life.

painedumonde's avatar

Caesar denies your opportunity, it is so decreed. Lest no one defy Caesar, he shall be marked and paraded. The Bible is not law, it is fiction. The spear is law. How many spears have ye?

Matri's avatar

To “be a steward” is to be the caretaker.

NOT “exploit and ruin”.