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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

"long live historical practices and understandings."

Slavery ? Monarchy ? Religious wars ?

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Patriarchy? Misogyny? Homophobia? Rule by decree?

Trust me on this one: an argument from tradition is NOT a good look.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

You say that to an history major 😉

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Jane in NC's avatar

Witch trials, spectral evidence......

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Holytape's avatar

Alito: Witch trials? You mean fair and equitable judiciary proceedings against evil, sinful, weak females.

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Jane in NC's avatar

Based on centuries of HISTORY and TRADITION! How fast can we get rid of that pesky 19th Amendment???

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Holytape's avatar

If you get rid of the first, then the rest will fall like a tree.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

You know that is on their list,

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NOGODZ20's avatar

"Tradition" is Christianese for "horror in the name of our 3-in-1 deity."

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

"but it is our right to force our religion of hate on everyone!"

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

Yes, all things they want to bring back.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

𝑆𝑡𝑟𝑎𝑦 𝑏𝑢𝑙𝑙𝑒𝑡𝑠 𝑑𝑜 𝑛𝑜𝑡 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑒𝑐𝑡 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑎𝑑𝑑𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑠𝑒𝑠, 𝑠𝑜𝑐𝑖𝑎𝑙 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑢𝑠, 𝑒𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑜𝑚𝑖𝑐 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑢𝑠, 𝑒𝑑𝑢𝑐𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑎𝑙 𝑏𝑎𝑐𝑘𝑔𝑟𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑑, 𝑝𝑜𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑙 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑢𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑙𝑖𝑠𝑡 𝑔𝑜𝑒𝑠 𝑜𝑛.

News Bulletin, Mr. Graham and Ms. Haynes: bullets have no regard for PRAYER, either. Your beliefs, no matter how fervent or closely held they are, will no more stop a bullet than your address or status will. Prayer had no effect on Uvalde or El Paso or Parkland, Florida or Newtown, Connecticut or ANYWHERE ELSE ... because PRAYER DOES NOTHING ... other than maybe making you feel better ... maybe.

And this doesn't even mention the fact that, by sponsoring a prayer vigil as a public representative, you are violating the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution, a document I suspect you were sworn to uphold. Far as I'm concerned, you need to clean up your act.

Or the both of you can refresh your resumes.

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E.A. Blair's avatar

How ironic it would have been had some nut case chosen to target that prayer vigil.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Pretty damned ironic!

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Too many armed cops in attendance.

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cdbunch's avatar

Plenty of innocent bystanders to catch in the crossfire. Win-win for everybody but the public.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

Well, the ammosexual in Vegas, targeted that country music concert. I bet very few spurned guns after that.

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Jane in NC's avatar

As many times as right-wingers have offered up 'thoughts and prayers' after a mass shooting, this would be the safest country on the planet if that did any good. Reminds me of this bit from Trae Crowder's stand-up act:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIi8omWwBI4

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oraxx's avatar

+++

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oraxx's avatar

How many prayers, do you suppose, were offered up during the Holocaust, and to what effect? Apart from the psychological effects on the true believer, prayer never affected the outcome of anything. Additionally, it is an excuse on the part of this law enforcement agency for not addressing a real problem with a real solution. Prayer has a success rate exactly equal to random chance.

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Stephen Brady's avatar

Prayer is something to keep the religious busy so they don't realize that it isn't working. God forfend they consider something like gun control to keep these unwelcome bullets from flying.

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Joe King's avatar

But if the bullet missed you, God stopped it and the prayer worked! If the bullet hit you and you were only injured and didn't die, then God saved your life and the prayer worked! Finally, if the bullet hit you and you did die, God wanted to bring you to heaven to be with Jesus and the prayer worked! It can't have been that God wasn't there and prayer is less effective than random chance.....

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Cathy G's avatar

Yep - the phrase I always see is "he/she was called home by the Lord".

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

Like a hog call? "Sueeee!"

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oraxx's avatar

+++

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ericc's avatar

Now you've got me thinking of Niemoller's "first they came for..."

First they opened a meeting with a prayer, but the courts said that was ceremonial, so you weren't given standing...

Then the coach led the team in prayer, but the courts said that was optional, so you weren't given standing...

Then the police Chief asked the citizens to show up at his event and pray to Jesus, but the courts said there was no real harm in that endorsement, so you weren't given standing...

Okay, so my meter and word choice sucks. Someone do better. But you get the idea.

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oraxx's avatar

I do. The Christian nationalists, having convinced themselves they have some kind of right to force their religion on the entire country, will never stop trying. I will never understand why mere freedom of religion isn't enough for these people. Evidently, forcing their beliefs on others leaves them feeling validated.

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ericc's avatar

It's easy to understand.; they believe in a God that exercises collective punishment. Everyone must toe the line because otherwise anyone may get punished.

Secondly, "the spell only works if literally everyone does it" is a great post-hoc rationalization for why your spell didn't work. It protects their belief from evidence.

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oraxx's avatar

+++ They are the world's worst herd animals.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

I wish we could get them to stampede off a cliff.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

And, if someone else doesn’t believe then they might consider questioning their beliefs and their beliefs just don’t hold up under the weakest of questions.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Also, if they can't be happy they don't want anyone else to be happy either.

Checkout:

𝐂𝐡𝐫𝐢𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐚𝐧 𝐍𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐚𝐥𝐢𝐬𝐭𝐬 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐢𝐫 𝐔𝐫𝐠𝐞𝐬, and the video

https://substack.com/home/post/p-141210222

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

Yes. Happy people don't vote republican.

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Tinker's avatar

𝐼𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑖𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑎𝑠𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑤𝑎𝑛𝑡 𝑡𝑜 𝑢𝑠𝑒 𝑡𝑜 𝑑𝑖𝑠𝑚𝑎𝑛𝑡𝑙𝑒 𝑐ℎ𝑢𝑟𝑐ℎ/𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑒 𝑠𝑒𝑝𝑎𝑟𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛, 𝑡ℎ𝑜𝑢𝑔ℎ, 𝑖𝑡’𝑠 𝑎 ℎ𝑜𝑟𝑟𝑖𝑏𝑙𝑒 𝑠𝑒𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑓𝑎𝑐𝑡𝑠 𝑜𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑖𝑟 𝑠𝑖𝑑𝑒.

Don't worry, the current SCOTUS will just make up the facts to fit the narrative they want.

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Kiwiwriter47's avatar

I'll go if they include:

1. A Jewish Rabbi (that's for my oft-mistreated ethnic group)

2. A Satanic leader

3. A representative of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

4. A representative of the Church of the Giant Blue Chicken (my new religion)

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Discrimination ! Where is the representative for the invisible pink unicorn ?!

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Kiwiwriter47's avatar

You have to bring that one.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I already had a Black Hole as a pet, I can't feed an unicorn too 😝

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Joe King's avatar

I'll take care of her. There is some space in my pasture.

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Kiwiwriter47's avatar

They eat Purina Unicorn Chow.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Ah. I only have Fido and Canigou canned food 🤔

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Joe King's avatar

...𝑖𝑚𝑝𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑑 𝑎 𝑔𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑜𝑟𝑠𝑒𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑤𝑎𝑠 𝑜𝑛𝑙𝑦 𝑖𝑙𝑙𝑒𝑔𝑎𝑙 𝑖𝑓 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑤𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑐𝑒𝑑

Which is their ultimate goal. First, they argue that government promotion of religion doesn't violate the Establishment Clause, because no one is forced. Then they argue that government can 𝘰𝘯𝘭𝘺 promote Christianity, and that doesn't violate the Establishment Clause, because tradition and "krischun nayshun". Then they force Christianity, claiming it doesn't violate the Establishment Clause, because it isn't makeing one particular denomination the official Church of the United States. Then the holy war starts, and we look like Ireland during the Troubles.

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EllenThatEllen's avatar

Ocala Florida does Not need fervent prayer. Ocala Florida needs the Ocala Florida police to stand up and do their jobs better. Actually start working! Maybe if they did that? The crime rate might go down? Maybe? Just a thought. If people want to pray sure do it at home : go into your room and close the door and your God who sees in secret will reward you. It's not about how many people you get from a government sponsored prayer vigil. (Oh look at us being holy! Really?!?)That's just passing the buck and being Fing lazy. I would not want Massachusetts to sponser a prayer vigil not the best use of funds for All concerned citizens! Do your jobs police and the crime rate will go down.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

But they are lazy, good ol' boys! They get paid to beat on minorities, and walk around in uniform, with a gun. Doing their jobs would require brains they don't have!

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EllenThatEllen's avatar

True. Oh those good ol' boys! So corrupt, so stupid. One of these days Oklahoma voters will start saying No MORE!!! with their votes.

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Susan Kemp's avatar

“The way the school saw it, it was devil worship.

In October 2019, three teenage girls were punished for participating in a spiritual ceremony. Their Arizona school expelled two of them, and let the third off with a warning, citing their attendance as a violation of school policy and grounds for expulsion.”

This is disgusting. I understand it was a religious school but to call participation in a tradition of their culture satanic is beyond the pale. Talk about cancel culture.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

An utter lack of understanding or consideration for a culture not their own. Shall we also mention a complete dearth of both empathy and compassion.

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Susan Kemp's avatar

Those are qualities that Jesus espoused, therefore no current evangelical “Christian” follows.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Remember the statues gifted to francis, who were thrown into the Tiber, because "Satanism" 🙄

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Actually, I'm not sure I know about that one. If you've got a link or something, it'd be much appreciated! 😁

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Took a while, but I found a non catholic source

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50189559

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Many thanks! 👍

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Sent it to Hemant a day or so ago, but he ain't interested seemingly ... pity.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

It happened in a private christian school, as shitty as it is to destroy an entire culture, the parents knew about the close mindness and sent their children there. The fault is with the government for not giving access to good public schools.

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cdbunch's avatar

Not bug. Feature.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

Yeah that rreally pissed me off, they are so poor they allow a particularly backward church to abuse them, and shit on their traditions.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

“said that participating in the prayer vigil was legal because there was no evidence of coercion,”

Armed men demanding everyone attend isn’t coercion? Really?

“there was no evidence of a lack of neutrality,”

Was one religion favored? Of course only was favored, therefore there was no neutrality.

“the plaintiffs lacked standing, and the Establishment Clause was on their side... “

The plaintiffs that lived in the city didn’t have standing. Pshaw. And the establishment clause prohibits government establishment of religion, not protects it. Go back to kindergarten.

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Lynn Veit's avatar

They'd fail kindergarten. Again.

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Whitney's avatar

This is a great demonstration of why Christianity in particular is so damaging to humanity; most Christians just straight-up won't stop until they get their way and compromise is beyond them. We all know that the City of Ocala is going to push this all the way up to SCOTUS in an effort to keep going with their Christian pageantry. We also know that the plaintiffs are more interested in stopping the practice than they are in making money ($6 plus attorney's fees is not a payday) but the Christian community won't report it that way.

If an argument from tradition is a logical fallacy, I don't see why anyone should accept it under the law. SCOTUS probably knows that, but too many of its justices just don't seem to care in their pursuit of paving the way for a Christian nation. The Lemon Test was, to the best of my knowledge, a solid system for making reasonable decisions about what did and did not violate the Establishment clause. Tossing it aside the way these SCOTUS justices have done to replace it with a more Christian-friendly test is just another chip in the legitimacy of the current court.

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

One of the advantages of a written constitution is it's easier to spot violations ... lucky.

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cdbunch's avatar

Spotting them isn't the problem. Getting anybody to care, that's the impossible part.

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Jason's avatar

If my town's police chief called for "prayer" to help stop a crime spree, I would want him replaced by someone who believed they had the ability to fight crime.

Any leader or first responder who throws up their hands and relies on a "deity" to save or protect people's lives is being criminally neglectful.

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Matri's avatar

In a sane society, anyone who fails at the ONE JOB they were specifically hired to do, they’d be replaced.

But apparently in the US, they’ll be called “Good Christians”.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

🎯It is confessing they are inept.

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Jason's avatar

Inept and deluded.

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Holytape's avatar

Police: Well, now that we have received a large portion of the city's budge, which in turn caused a marked decline in the spending on mental health services, and basic social service. And since our strangle hold on the budget prevents the city from even trying alternatives to over policing as methods of reducing crime. And since we are now armed to the teeth with unnecessary weapons, the only solution to the crime problem is.... prayer.

People: Can't you do anything about it?

Police: We're not going out on the streets? Have you seen how dangerous it is out there?

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Die Anyway's avatar

The next time the Police Chief wants an increase in his budget, the City Council should tell him to pray for it.

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Bagen Onuts's avatar

Prayer stops bullets. Until actual bullets start flying, that is.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

In general, mental health and basic social services are handled by the counties in Floriduh.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

Yes. Rather badly at that.

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Jane in NC's avatar

"Moving forward, I expect lower courts will recognize that offended observer standing has no more foundation in the law than the Lemon test that inspired it. If I am wrong, the city is free to seek relief here after final judgment." ----Neil Gorsuch

I'm starting to think that lack of self-awareness is a symptom of christian nationalism disease. Has Neil ever met Our Lady of Perpetual Umbrage, Martha Ann Alito? You remember our gal Martha Ann, who deliberately walked down the street of her neighborhood just so she could be offended by a neighbor's political sign? The same Martha Ann who took personal offense at another neighbor's pride flag - from all the way across the lagoon from her beach house? Do these people even listen to themselves? Or does their self-righteousness plug up their ears?

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ericc's avatar

Spence in Austin nails it.

If you watch a government official endorse Jesus, you don't have standing. If you watch a random private citizen take a legal medicine you think Jesus disapproves of, you have standing.

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Jane in NC's avatar

Precisely. See how simple[minded] that is? How in the hell did we end up this bunch of loons as our 'supreme' court?

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Bagen Onuts's avatar

The murkan kkkon method. Cheating.

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Lynn Veit's avatar

And lying.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

Moscow Mitch cheated, and blocked us from two seats, and stupid sheep believed russian propaganda.

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Bagen Onuts's avatar

Their jesus says they must hate their families and love their enemies...

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Lynn Veit's avatar

Offended white Christians are different, dontcha know. They get to be offended at literally anyone or anything, and demand to speak to the manager. But nobody better ever be offended by THEM, or there will be hell to pay.

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Jane in NC's avatar

Something, something about 'for people who are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.' They know they're losing their hegemony. The more that reality sets in, the touchier they become. I'm reminded of the quote from the late, great Christopher Hitchens: "Those who are determined to be 'offended' will discover a provocation somewhere. We cannot possibly adjust enough to please the fanatics, and it is degrading to make the attempt."

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

And yet they're are so belligerent, stupid, and offensive.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

The latter, but I do realise that was rhetorical.

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Stephen Brady's avatar

We have a SCOTUS which is telling christian nationalists how to write their suits so they can pass off on them. If we do not win in November and end this with court reform, they will gleefully install a theofascist dictatorship.

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Straw's avatar

To a foreigner like me it looks like they are trying very hard. And succeeding step by step.

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Stephen Brady's avatar

They are. The religious right here had a generational stroke of luck in tRump. He constitutionally cannot think deeply enough to look at the potential consequences of his actions, so he had a chance to appoint a super-majority to the Supreme Court and he did - without reflecting on what that majority would do to the country - he only thinks about what will bring him more power and more opportunities to grift. He has a very real possibility of burning the country to the ground and as long as he profits, he could care less.

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Maltnothops's avatar

And the irony that the religious right was helped by someone who undoubtedly regards them as useful idiots.

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Straw's avatar

Well, they are. That's the only thing I agree with him on.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Until recently, SCOTUS's decisions didn't affect him personally.

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Old Man Shadow's avatar

We are facing a crisis in the City of Ocala and Marion County that requires...

us to wish really hard for magic to happen.

Yep. We're all silently wishing for magic to happen.

Sure if there is a god, they gave us a semi-rational mind that can think and come up with proposed solutions to violence but shit, that's hard. It might cost money. It might get mean things said about us by the NRA. It might cost me my job in the next election. So let's all sit back, do nothing, and wish for magic.

And sure, God's general lack of intervention suggests at best that they're leaving this shit up to us to solve, but again, I don't really wanna, so let's wish really hard that the unchanging God will change their minds and, I don't know, miraculously make all the guns vanish as soon as a bad guy touches them.

I'm totally serious. I'm a public official you elected.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Police chiefs are appointed.

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