I will believe the victims. Religious leaders have been allowed to hide behind their clerical collars and magic books for far too long. Pedophiles go where the kids are. There will always be people like Havsgaard, but the real problem lies with the people who delegate an important part of their thinking to them, and support them financially.
I get the sense of comfort that comes with the certainty of being a child in a truly safe and comfortable environment where their needs are met. I also understand that part of our identity is how we think people think we are.
I think taking on the label of "a child of god" (or whatever variation) conditions people to subconsciously take on the child-like mindset and put everything onto the "parent" - in this case god, aka the pastor. There is no god, and the pastor isn't really going to take on the parent role to the full extent of a real parent. The congregation is full of adults after all, and they shouldn't have to.
Some pastors will take on that role in a self-serving way, like doing the thinking for their congregation.
You know what is really sick? That the crimes described here made me gag and physically sick to my stomach, and yet they’re tame compared to what is in the Trumpstein files. And because of the Trumpstein scandal, these people thought they could get away with this type of crime, they knew they could. Well, as long as they had cash in the bank.
This is a church problem, but it goes far beyond just churches. It is a powerful men problem overall, and churches prop up and participate wholeheartedly in the powerful men with zero accountability culture. Church and powerful men go hand in hand, you cannot separate them. Which came first? Does it matter? They’re part and parcel of the system, I mean, powerful men created church to give them excuses to be entitled to the bodies of the less powerful men, women, and children of the world. Church gives men excuses to be in charge, cover to do whatever they want, protection from consequences, and a constant stream of victims to exploit.
Let’s do it, Pam Bondi. Let’s tear the whole thing down and rebuild from scratch.
Bondi doesn't have half the hormones she would need to tackle something like this. She is way too sold out to Trump and the patriarchy to even consider such a thing.
The “glass cliff” is when women are put into positions of power during times of crisis/downturn and when the risk of failure is at its highest. The reason being is that they will be responsible for the inevitable downfall. It’s a common strategy and I’ve experienced this phenomenon in most places I’ve worked at.
Epstein vs. churches need two slightly different solutions, I think.
Both need some method to protect "whistleblowers" from retaliation from the powerful/monied person in charge. But that's not the main problem, since in both cases you see a lot of self-censorship: people who could be whistleblowers choose not to be, of their own free accord. The 'why' is different: straight-up money in Epstein's case, while in the church case (as well as university abuse cases) a person might care about the institution enough to want to protect it from harm even if they want the offender gone. So that's where the solutions need to differ. For the Epstein's of the world maybe we need some way to incentivize normal not-mandatory-reporters to report. Things like protection from prosecution or some sort of reward or the like. For the church and university cases, it may be sufficient to require by law that some staff in any organization that regularly deals with children *be* mandatory reporters (to the police, and that these institutions not be allowed to create alternative in-house reporting mechanisms that substitute for a police report.
Sure, but they also need the same thing. Take away their power. Eliminate the ideas that men, based entirely on the fact that they are men, are the default, are superior, are qualified, or should be in control. The idea that women are automatically inferior, less than, or just not people. That children are property. Build the world on humanity being equals, that we ought to help everyone and not on caste systems. I do t have the energy and the ability exactly to explain precisely what I mean, it boils down to “Fuck the Patriarchy” and fuck capitalism. These incidents, Epstein and Havsgaard, and even the RCC, Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehovas Witness, sports ball leagues, etc etc etc, are all happening because this is the system we live under, not in spite of the system. Feature, not bug.
Your solution deals with the acute problem, while the rest not solution for the chronic systemic issues that create the acute symptoms, is to tear it all down.
Maleness is definitely part of it because 90% of crimes are committed by men.
However I think I think "power corrupts" is the key here; even women in authoritarian power structures will abuse it, often to similar horrible ends. The Magdalene Laundries were run by nuns. And does anyone actually believe Elizabeth Holmes was deceived into putting a defective test on the market by Sunny Balwani? No. She made those decisions. Women make these similar corrupt decisions when given similar locally absolute power.
I agree that there would be some women that are corrupted, they are human beings after all, however history proves you wrong that a matriarchal society will be this depraved at the top. The thing about matriarchal societies is that they distribute power and work with society’s well being in mind. Where patriarchy is about self indulgence and building power structures for individuals over society. Will that eliminate corruption completely, absolutely not, but when people are living under matriarchy everyone does better and far fewer crimes against children happen.
I don't want a matriarchal OR patriarchal society, I want a democracy. And not just on principle, I think it's better in practice too.
In my opinion, this is not a case of 'men 1% bad apples, women 0.1% bad apples so a woman-led society will have less bad apples at the top." That is not how things actually work out. This is a case of "in ANY authoritarian construct - and yes that includes authoritarian matriarchies - the bad apples will inevitably float to the top."
I'm not convinced that matriarchical = distributed and well-being-oriented. Again, Magdalene Laundries. Queen Isabella stood at the forefront of the Spanish Inquisition. Eva Peron murdered political opponents. Indira Ghandi suspended civil liberties, jailed political opponents, and censored the press for a 21 month period. Women are perfectly able and willing to work within top-down authoritarianism to achieve their ends, and even create top-down authoritarian regimes when it suits them. Again, the bad apples rise to the top. The more matriarchal you made the system, the more bad female apples you'd see at the top of it. You want a distributive system? The only way to get it is to have a constitution and rules that require power to be distributed. Not merely 'we will select people from the subset with the more distributive mind set.'
And sure, the current president is a good example of how bad apples can float to the top in a democracy too. But at least in those cases, it's temporary and occasional. It's not "now that I am here I will pull the ladder up forever, muhahahaha."
It’s the system of patriarchy that harms everyone including men (especially men). Men, women, gay men, lesbians, etc etc are all capable of being and acting patriarchal and misogynistic. It’s because we were all raised from a young age in this system of obedience and strict gender roles. Boys are taught not to have feelings or feel love, but anger and violence are acceptable emotions/actions. Girls are reprimanded if they show feelings of anger or rage at their circumstances. I highly recommend this book by Bell Hooks: The Will to Change.
Agree Val with the totality of your argument but Pam is not the right vehicle to make this happen. She is one of the lynchpins of neochristian supremacy.
I wasn’t asking her to do it. I was calling her out because she thinks that regular people think it’s a bad thing to tear down the system to prosecute these heinous criminals.
Are we sure that "denial" is a river that runs through Egypt? The way that Greg Laurie talks, you'd swear there is a tributary that somehow made it to Romania, for all the fancy verbal dancing he's doing. This guy Havsgaard whom Laurie praises so richly may have served the lord, but what he was doing to the kids in those orphanages was beyond horrific.
About all I can do after reading this is just shake my head in amazement. How does ANYONE get to the point where they feel as though they can treat children like this, consistently and repeatedly and think it's okay?
In fairness, and although Magangelicals do not live by this, Jesus says that for anyone who puts a stumbling block that damages children, it would be better for them to tie a giant millstone around their neck and throw themselves into the sea.
And that is what should happen to these church leaders.
And why not reuse them? We could tie the first one on, drop it in, lift it out later and tie the next one on and drop it back in. When it's full, discard the refuse and start over.
spot on Joe !From 1966-72 my father(foreign svc-diplo corps) was Chief medical officer,overseeing all the U.S. embassies ;behind the' iron curtain" in eastern europe. We were stationed in Yugoslavia,Belgrade (still in one piece,Tito was still holding his empire together) .WE lived in Belgrade, where US had the largest footprint,with full service clinics etc. Point here,is that our smaller embassies in Hungary,Romainia,and Bulgaria had only small consulate with a NP avail 24/7. And ,as a 16 year old, I would often accompany him on his 'routes". My HEART goes out to those young men and boys in Romainia (which was still under Stalins boot,so to speak). I can just imagine what those poor boys,who had NOTHING were forced to do,,,what a sicko,,,so sad....
They are broken to begin with. Possibly, molested themselves. But more likely, I have uch reason to believe, someone with kinks, deeply deeply deeply shamed by the confluence of hyper conservative Christianity and their kinks. They don’t get help for it, they pretend to be normal. And as they hide out in the closet, they prove what I have been saying for decades. The closet is a lie, it is based on lies, it encourages lies, and it twists, perverts, distort, and ultimately destroys everything behind the closet door.
And this is how we know it's about money and power instead of helping others. The abuse allegations have enough credibility to move a lawsuit forward, so instead of making it roght, the church denies involvement and leaves the perpetrator without resources. The only reason they haven't turned him over to law enforcement is to maintain power. The only reason they haven't given him financial backing is to preserve their own wealth.
I don’t hate you. i love you. love love love love love. I just hate your vile, hypocritical, child molesting, lying, prevaricating, sexual assaulting, nasty. hypocritical, corrupt, grating, abusive, reviling, slandering, exploitive, sexually disgusting ways.
This stuff that falls into that region people can't believe exist. I think because fiction has to make sense, especially the stories we tell ourselves.
Standing back to pivot for a larger picture of things...
I read Lord of the Flies in grade school, and we watched the movie. Some decades later, I came across an article talking about a group of boys that had taken out a boat and shipped wrecked into a deserted island. A real life Lord of the Flies situation. They were stranded for 18 months. Turns out, they didn't descend into barbarism. Yes, they did have conflicts and fights, but they learned to resolve them. There was no ritual hunting and killing.
Listening to Penn Jillette, he had read the book to, and when he reached the end, William Golding, the author, posed the question if the men prevented the boys from descending into barbarism, what's to stop the men from doing the same.
This didn't sit will with me, still doesn't.
Then I came across an article about Golding since his book is all the rage at the moment. Golding was a school teacher in the UK. Living in the UK, I'm very well aware of what it was like. He got his inspiration for Lord of the Flies from watching them on the playground. As soon as I read that, I understood fully the level of bullshit in the book.
You know all that alpha male bullshit that's permeated our culture? Again, bullshit. It was derived from watching wolves in captivity. As it turns out, that only happens in captivity, not in nature. Golding hitting upon the "realization" of human barbarism watching school boys is no different than the bullshit study on wolves in captivity. (Hmmm... Is school like being in captivity?)
It's really no different than when academics would go to the human zoo in Paris (you read that right), and study natives "in their natural habitat." Almost no one's behavior doesn't change under scrutiny. And being locked up in a zoo to be watched isn't exactly a "natural habitat."
Fuck. Maybe Golding is onto something. If so, it wasn't the lack of oversight that prevented it; it was the other way around.
Anyway, to me people that believe human beings require oversight in order to do the right thing can't be trusted except with the most minor or tasks, ones that they know will be scrutinized. They can't be left on their own for any length of time.
This applies especially to religious leaders. They've taken themselves out of the accountability calculation they impose on everyone else.
It seems common in the US to assume that if there is a disaster then people will suddenly become barbarians/cannibals or whatever. There's a whole science fiction genre isn't there where someone called Colt Remington or something Has to make his way from one end of the US to the other to rescue some relative fighting off hordes of rabid nutcases the whole way. With his trusty AR 15 of course. I've been through at least one disaster, and found that people simply helped each other. Obviously there were a few people who decided to go stealing stuff, but on the whole they were the exception.
Makes sense. Despite growing up in CA, earthquakes aren't the first thing I think of when it comes to disasters. I've been through so many, they're almost ordinary. When we got hit with one here in the UK, people were shocked.
We were in a hotel in Japan when – let's say a medium-sized– earthquake happened. Nothing serious, but it certainly made things rattle around a bit. Out of all the tourists in the lobby, we were the only ones that didn't panic. You could see the others all wide-eyed wondering what was happening. We just walked to the nearest door and stood under it which was SOP at the time.
Lord of the Flies was about a very specific class of people. Extremely wealthy white boarding school boys. And as we see in real life, the super privileged men of the world (not always white, the Sheik named in the files for example) that have grown up watching their fathers rule over other people and treat them like animals or objects have no problem acting the way described in the book and worse.
I would say that for the average human, it’s the captivity/oversight that causes abnormal behaviors. But when it comes to men like Trump and those who spent time on The Island, oversight is the only thing that protects the rest of us from them, forcing them to behave humanely or humanly. That’s just my unprofessional two cents.
But that's okay, because dystopian novels don't need to be fully realistic to teach us "if you don't change your ways, see what might happen."
Send Help is using the exact same basic dystopian framework to teach the same basic message, only this time with something of a Tarantino revenge fantasy flavor to it. (Well...from what I can tell from previews. I haven't seen it)
I think it's more disaster rather dystopian. I certainly enjoy a good exploration of things through fiction. But by finishing the novel with "What's to keep the men on submarine from descending into barbarism," Golding is declaring man's nature to be barbaric rather than an exploration man's nature under stress. And working our way up from kids to adults, then leaders (gov't, royalty, the church), god it the ultimate force that keeps man from becoming animalistic. That certainly puts a whole new spin on "god made me this way."
I think the class nuance will fly over most people's heads, especially in the States, since our class system is structured differently; not that we wouldn't understand it, it's just not our default. Then you add in 70 years difference, the banal cruelty begins to become unbelievable.
My wife's grandmother (who's British) gave up her first child for adoption after a year of struggling to take care of her (the father hadn't come back to "do the right thing"). She followed the lady into the room, the lady instructed her to put the baby in the pram, then told her to leave. Realizing this was the last time she was going to see her child, she reached down and the woman told her to stop. She asked, "What are you doing?" "I was just going to give her a hug goodbye." "If you touch that child, I'll have you arrested. She's not yours anymore. Leave now." Like, WTF? How inhuman do you have to be to not see the pain of being forced to give up your child?
We talk about the big things like racism, sexism/misogyny, child abuse and such, but the amount of low level inhumanity inflicted upon other is phenomenal. Yeah, we can be pretty bad, but I think Golding's book would have been much better if he'd explore the impact of stuff like that rather than picking low hanging fruit like "boys be mean to each other."
Calvary Chapel believes that all mankind is corrupt, sinful, and tainted by evil. That our best works amount to garbage in the eyes of God. That no one is righteous. That everyone needs redemption before God through the literal blood of Jesus Christ to avoid burning in fire forever because of how disgustingly tainted and evil by sin we are.
Many Calvary Chapel affiliates also believe in the "Moses model" of leadership in which complete control of the churches in placed in the hands of the senior pastor. Associate pastors answer only to the senior pastor. Power is placed entirely in the hands of a small cadre of men without oversight and ultimately in the hands of one man running the church.
Then they seem surprised to find out that abuse happened.
Look, I don't think most people deserve to burn in a Hell and I can tell you that abuse always thrives in authoritarian systems. Give people unwarranted and unchecked power over other people and abuse will happen sooner or later.
It doesn't matter if it's a pastor with unchecked power, a president, a cop. Give anyone unchecked power over other people and abuse WILL happen. You need checks on power. You need brakes on power. Power has to be bridled and people with power need to be reviewed constantly. You need ways for people to report abuse without retaliation. You need leadership that takes every allegation seriously. You need independent investigators (preferably law enforcement that does not have ties to the organization being investigated.)
This will ALWAYS happen in authoritarian systems. You need to disburse power to the people and watchmen.
Tax. The. Churches. No more free rides. Start messing with their money and wait for the screams to begin. They might even make some reforms, starting with throwing their kiddie diddlers under the bus to save their true god ($$$).
In all of Ms. Olivarius’ and Ms. Cervenka’s efforts to round up information to discredit me and to bring false accusations against me, they say nothing of all that we accomplished in the lives of the children..... Exactly, it just like no one ever mentions all the good OJ did as a husband.
(a) it's not the Prosecution's job to defend the accused. You want a defense attorney, get a defense attorney.
(b) good deeds do not excuse crimes. The law punishes based on separate actions, not your overall resume. If you are a wonderful person who committed theft, that makes you...a wonderful person who goes to jail for theft.
Well. There’s no rest for the wicked. Is there?fifth morning at the new house, and we find yet another child molester in the clergy. But thisone is not merely molesting, he’s pimping.
“ I know what God wants; what I want, God wants.”
And what a stunning admission that is. It explains everything. I have never wanted to molest a kid, and I guess, god agrees.no millstones for me.
HEmant wrote: “ The hypocrisy here is staggering, especially given Laurie’s platform as an evangelist with a massive budget at his disposal.” one more time; THIS IS NOT MERELY HYPOCRISY. THIS IS MORAL CORRUPTION OFVTHE WORST SORT.
They are that which they allegedly hate. They have money for massive lawsuit payoffs. They ignore/protect abusers. Gawd has plenty millstones for them.
After reading this...all I can say is Havsgaard is one sick fuck who needs to be permanently and securely locked away from humanity for humanity's protection. I don't know how a human being - an alleged human being that is - reaches this level of depravity and evil, where he takes enjoyment in the vile, gross acts he perpetrated on these children. He could scarcely be a more dangerous predator if he had actual scales, claws and fangs. He is dangerous because he WILL DO IT AGAIN, the first chance he gets.
I can't believe this fuck isn't already locked away somewhere.
As for all that whining about being so broke he can't protect himself from lawsuits...THIS from a man who threw penniless orphans who displeased him into the street in the winter, and made them beg to come back.
Whine on, whine on harvest goon. Nobody gives a fuck about you. I hope you wind up in maximum security -- in the general population.
I've heard payback is a bitch. I've heard karma is a bitch. I hope they both land on you and eat you alive.
Over on Erin in the Morning, there've been several articles in the last week about GQP-led states pushing (and passing) bills to prevent trans people from using the toilet, all on the grounds that we're supposedly some sort of danger to women and children.
Meanwhile, there's 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 gross misuse of oxygen over here using 𝘢𝘤𝘵𝘶𝘢𝘭 women and children 𝘢𝘴 toilets- to a depressingly familiar chorus of 𝘤𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘬𝘦𝘵 𝘯𝘰𝘪𝘴𝘦𝘴 from the same politicians who are 𝘰𝘩-𝘴𝘰-𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺-𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘯𝘦𝘥 about protecting women and children any time they're pitched a 𝘩𝘺𝘱𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 crime painted in white, pink, and blue.
I can't even. If this isn't the apotheosis of "𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺 𝘢𝘤𝘤𝘶𝘴𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘪𝘴 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯," I am truly at a loss over what could 𝘱𝘰𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘣𝘭𝘺 be a better one.
"These lawsuits have ruined any hope of being able to minister because no church wants to risk a potential lawsuit as well" So, If I read this correctly, churches will hire child molesters just as long as they won't get sued. Gotcha!🙄
"I know what God wants; what I want, God wants."
Torturing and molesting chldren is what your nonexistent deity wants, you sick freak? Then he is as much an ogre as you.
"What I want, god wants" = "I am god."
Agree NOGODZ20, I am near speechless by this evil. What was getting at? That god sent his son for torture too?
Agreed 100% what a SICKO....
I will believe the victims. Religious leaders have been allowed to hide behind their clerical collars and magic books for far too long. Pedophiles go where the kids are. There will always be people like Havsgaard, but the real problem lies with the people who delegate an important part of their thinking to them, and support them financially.
I get the sense of comfort that comes with the certainty of being a child in a truly safe and comfortable environment where their needs are met. I also understand that part of our identity is how we think people think we are.
I think taking on the label of "a child of god" (or whatever variation) conditions people to subconsciously take on the child-like mindset and put everything onto the "parent" - in this case god, aka the pastor. There is no god, and the pastor isn't really going to take on the parent role to the full extent of a real parent. The congregation is full of adults after all, and they shouldn't have to.
Some pastors will take on that role in a self-serving way, like doing the thinking for their congregation.
Too broke? Poor thing. Let me get out my electron microscope and play you a tune on my violin.
🎼 "Whine on, whine on, Harvest Goon...."
Oohhh, well done!
You know what is really sick? That the crimes described here made me gag and physically sick to my stomach, and yet they’re tame compared to what is in the Trumpstein files. And because of the Trumpstein scandal, these people thought they could get away with this type of crime, they knew they could. Well, as long as they had cash in the bank.
This is a church problem, but it goes far beyond just churches. It is a powerful men problem overall, and churches prop up and participate wholeheartedly in the powerful men with zero accountability culture. Church and powerful men go hand in hand, you cannot separate them. Which came first? Does it matter? They’re part and parcel of the system, I mean, powerful men created church to give them excuses to be entitled to the bodies of the less powerful men, women, and children of the world. Church gives men excuses to be in charge, cover to do whatever they want, protection from consequences, and a constant stream of victims to exploit.
Let’s do it, Pam Bondi. Let’s tear the whole thing down and rebuild from scratch.
Bondi doesn't have half the hormones she would need to tackle something like this. She is way too sold out to Trump and the patriarchy to even consider such a thing.
She’s there to hold the line (uphold the patriarchy) and she should have her finger cut off.
I doubt she has the fortitude to go through a Yakuza initiation!
I know. I was telling her that her excuse/threat isn’t compelling. Let’s do it anyway.
Is there ANYTHING about Bondi that is even remotely compelling? 😝
Well, I did have trouble tearing myself away from her train wreck of a performance in front of Congress.
I will say that it doesn't bother me to watch her get ripped three ways from Sunday by multiple congresspeople ... even Republicans! 👀
The “glass cliff” is when women are put into positions of power during times of crisis/downturn and when the risk of failure is at its highest. The reason being is that they will be responsible for the inevitable downfall. It’s a common strategy and I’ve experienced this phenomenon in most places I’ve worked at.
PS: Kamala Harris? ;)
Epstein vs. churches need two slightly different solutions, I think.
Both need some method to protect "whistleblowers" from retaliation from the powerful/monied person in charge. But that's not the main problem, since in both cases you see a lot of self-censorship: people who could be whistleblowers choose not to be, of their own free accord. The 'why' is different: straight-up money in Epstein's case, while in the church case (as well as university abuse cases) a person might care about the institution enough to want to protect it from harm even if they want the offender gone. So that's where the solutions need to differ. For the Epstein's of the world maybe we need some way to incentivize normal not-mandatory-reporters to report. Things like protection from prosecution or some sort of reward or the like. For the church and university cases, it may be sufficient to require by law that some staff in any organization that regularly deals with children *be* mandatory reporters (to the police, and that these institutions not be allowed to create alternative in-house reporting mechanisms that substitute for a police report.
Sure, but they also need the same thing. Take away their power. Eliminate the ideas that men, based entirely on the fact that they are men, are the default, are superior, are qualified, or should be in control. The idea that women are automatically inferior, less than, or just not people. That children are property. Build the world on humanity being equals, that we ought to help everyone and not on caste systems. I do t have the energy and the ability exactly to explain precisely what I mean, it boils down to “Fuck the Patriarchy” and fuck capitalism. These incidents, Epstein and Havsgaard, and even the RCC, Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehovas Witness, sports ball leagues, etc etc etc, are all happening because this is the system we live under, not in spite of the system. Feature, not bug.
Your solution deals with the acute problem, while the rest not solution for the chronic systemic issues that create the acute symptoms, is to tear it all down.
Maleness is definitely part of it because 90% of crimes are committed by men.
However I think I think "power corrupts" is the key here; even women in authoritarian power structures will abuse it, often to similar horrible ends. The Magdalene Laundries were run by nuns. And does anyone actually believe Elizabeth Holmes was deceived into putting a defective test on the market by Sunny Balwani? No. She made those decisions. Women make these similar corrupt decisions when given similar locally absolute power.
I agree that there would be some women that are corrupted, they are human beings after all, however history proves you wrong that a matriarchal society will be this depraved at the top. The thing about matriarchal societies is that they distribute power and work with society’s well being in mind. Where patriarchy is about self indulgence and building power structures for individuals over society. Will that eliminate corruption completely, absolutely not, but when people are living under matriarchy everyone does better and far fewer crimes against children happen.
I don't want a matriarchal OR patriarchal society, I want a democracy. And not just on principle, I think it's better in practice too.
In my opinion, this is not a case of 'men 1% bad apples, women 0.1% bad apples so a woman-led society will have less bad apples at the top." That is not how things actually work out. This is a case of "in ANY authoritarian construct - and yes that includes authoritarian matriarchies - the bad apples will inevitably float to the top."
I'm not convinced that matriarchical = distributed and well-being-oriented. Again, Magdalene Laundries. Queen Isabella stood at the forefront of the Spanish Inquisition. Eva Peron murdered political opponents. Indira Ghandi suspended civil liberties, jailed political opponents, and censored the press for a 21 month period. Women are perfectly able and willing to work within top-down authoritarianism to achieve their ends, and even create top-down authoritarian regimes when it suits them. Again, the bad apples rise to the top. The more matriarchal you made the system, the more bad female apples you'd see at the top of it. You want a distributive system? The only way to get it is to have a constitution and rules that require power to be distributed. Not merely 'we will select people from the subset with the more distributive mind set.'
And sure, the current president is a good example of how bad apples can float to the top in a democracy too. But at least in those cases, it's temporary and occasional. It's not "now that I am here I will pull the ladder up forever, muhahahaha."
It’s the system of patriarchy that harms everyone including men (especially men). Men, women, gay men, lesbians, etc etc are all capable of being and acting patriarchal and misogynistic. It’s because we were all raised from a young age in this system of obedience and strict gender roles. Boys are taught not to have feelings or feel love, but anger and violence are acceptable emotions/actions. Girls are reprimanded if they show feelings of anger or rage at their circumstances. I highly recommend this book by Bell Hooks: The Will to Change.
👍
💥☝️☝️☝️
Agree Val with the totality of your argument but Pam is not the right vehicle to make this happen. She is one of the lynchpins of neochristian supremacy.
I wasn’t asking her to do it. I was calling her out because she thinks that regular people think it’s a bad thing to tear down the system to prosecute these heinous criminals.
Are we sure that "denial" is a river that runs through Egypt? The way that Greg Laurie talks, you'd swear there is a tributary that somehow made it to Romania, for all the fancy verbal dancing he's doing. This guy Havsgaard whom Laurie praises so richly may have served the lord, but what he was doing to the kids in those orphanages was beyond horrific.
About all I can do after reading this is just shake my head in amazement. How does ANYONE get to the point where they feel as though they can treat children like this, consistently and repeatedly and think it's okay?
When your holy book tells you children are property and not people, that grants license for every atrocity.
In fairness, and although Magangelicals do not live by this, Jesus says that for anyone who puts a stumbling block that damages children, it would be better for them to tie a giant millstone around their neck and throw themselves into the sea.
And that is what should happen to these church leaders.
We have an insufficient supply of granite to make the number of millstones necessary.
We can crank up production!
Who says one predator per millstone?
And why not reuse them? We could tie the first one on, drop it in, lift it out later and tie the next one on and drop it back in. When it's full, discard the refuse and start over.
Would that they were even aware of that verse. Of course, they're not.
Believing absurdities leads to atrocities.
Voltaire sure thought so.
spot on Joe !From 1966-72 my father(foreign svc-diplo corps) was Chief medical officer,overseeing all the U.S. embassies ;behind the' iron curtain" in eastern europe. We were stationed in Yugoslavia,Belgrade (still in one piece,Tito was still holding his empire together) .WE lived in Belgrade, where US had the largest footprint,with full service clinics etc. Point here,is that our smaller embassies in Hungary,Romainia,and Bulgaria had only small consulate with a NP avail 24/7. And ,as a 16 year old, I would often accompany him on his 'routes". My HEART goes out to those young men and boys in Romainia (which was still under Stalins boot,so to speak). I can just imagine what those poor boys,who had NOTHING were forced to do,,,what a sicko,,,so sad....
I can’t even read it.
That’s okay. We read it so you wouldn’t have to.
It’s every bit as bad as you can imagine. Bad and so-very-predictable, sad to say.
I hear you ... and I wonder if those kids are getting serious help.
They are broken to begin with. Possibly, molested themselves. But more likely, I have uch reason to believe, someone with kinks, deeply deeply deeply shamed by the confluence of hyper conservative Christianity and their kinks. They don’t get help for it, they pretend to be normal. And as they hide out in the closet, they prove what I have been saying for decades. The closet is a lie, it is based on lies, it encourages lies, and it twists, perverts, distort, and ultimately destroys everything behind the closet door.
And this is how we know it's about money and power instead of helping others. The abuse allegations have enough credibility to move a lawsuit forward, so instead of making it roght, the church denies involvement and leaves the perpetrator without resources. The only reason they haven't turned him over to law enforcement is to maintain power. The only reason they haven't given him financial backing is to preserve their own wealth.
The leopards will eat leopard faces, too.
Obligatory...
CHRISTIANS: "Why does everyone hate us so?"
And the other obligatory: not a drag queen.
Or an atheist.
Gay man to christians:
I don’t hate you. i love you. love love love love love. I just hate your vile, hypocritical, child molesting, lying, prevaricating, sexual assaulting, nasty. hypocritical, corrupt, grating, abusive, reviling, slandering, exploitive, sexually disgusting ways.
And really, who could find hate in that!?!?!?
This stuff that falls into that region people can't believe exist. I think because fiction has to make sense, especially the stories we tell ourselves.
Standing back to pivot for a larger picture of things...
I read Lord of the Flies in grade school, and we watched the movie. Some decades later, I came across an article talking about a group of boys that had taken out a boat and shipped wrecked into a deserted island. A real life Lord of the Flies situation. They were stranded for 18 months. Turns out, they didn't descend into barbarism. Yes, they did have conflicts and fights, but they learned to resolve them. There was no ritual hunting and killing.
Listening to Penn Jillette, he had read the book to, and when he reached the end, William Golding, the author, posed the question if the men prevented the boys from descending into barbarism, what's to stop the men from doing the same.
This didn't sit will with me, still doesn't.
Then I came across an article about Golding since his book is all the rage at the moment. Golding was a school teacher in the UK. Living in the UK, I'm very well aware of what it was like. He got his inspiration for Lord of the Flies from watching them on the playground. As soon as I read that, I understood fully the level of bullshit in the book.
You know all that alpha male bullshit that's permeated our culture? Again, bullshit. It was derived from watching wolves in captivity. As it turns out, that only happens in captivity, not in nature. Golding hitting upon the "realization" of human barbarism watching school boys is no different than the bullshit study on wolves in captivity. (Hmmm... Is school like being in captivity?)
It's really no different than when academics would go to the human zoo in Paris (you read that right), and study natives "in their natural habitat." Almost no one's behavior doesn't change under scrutiny. And being locked up in a zoo to be watched isn't exactly a "natural habitat."
Fuck. Maybe Golding is onto something. If so, it wasn't the lack of oversight that prevented it; it was the other way around.
Anyway, to me people that believe human beings require oversight in order to do the right thing can't be trusted except with the most minor or tasks, ones that they know will be scrutinized. They can't be left on their own for any length of time.
This applies especially to religious leaders. They've taken themselves out of the accountability calculation they impose on everyone else.
It seems common in the US to assume that if there is a disaster then people will suddenly become barbarians/cannibals or whatever. There's a whole science fiction genre isn't there where someone called Colt Remington or something Has to make his way from one end of the US to the other to rescue some relative fighting off hordes of rabid nutcases the whole way. With his trusty AR 15 of course. I've been through at least one disaster, and found that people simply helped each other. Obviously there were a few people who decided to go stealing stuff, but on the whole they were the exception.
Sound like gun porn. I'm going to speculate that those nutcases were liberals and commies.
Glad you made it through okay. When you say "at least one" it makes me think you've been through a range of things.
We have a lot of earthquakes. The law of averages says some will do a lot of damage. In our buildings aren't as my law as may be Japan's.
Makes sense. Despite growing up in CA, earthquakes aren't the first thing I think of when it comes to disasters. I've been through so many, they're almost ordinary. When we got hit with one here in the UK, people were shocked.
Neighbor: "Did you feel the earthquake?"
Me: "What earthquake?"
N: "Yesterday. It was 4.5 on the Richter Scale."
Me: :/
We were in a hotel in Japan when – let's say a medium-sized– earthquake happened. Nothing serious, but it certainly made things rattle around a bit. Out of all the tourists in the lobby, we were the only ones that didn't panic. You could see the others all wide-eyed wondering what was happening. We just walked to the nearest door and stood under it which was SOP at the time.
Lord of the Flies was about a very specific class of people. Extremely wealthy white boarding school boys. And as we see in real life, the super privileged men of the world (not always white, the Sheik named in the files for example) that have grown up watching their fathers rule over other people and treat them like animals or objects have no problem acting the way described in the book and worse.
I would say that for the average human, it’s the captivity/oversight that causes abnormal behaviors. But when it comes to men like Trump and those who spent time on The Island, oversight is the only thing that protects the rest of us from them, forcing them to behave humanely or humanly. That’s just my unprofessional two cents.
It's dystopian, even for that group.
But that's okay, because dystopian novels don't need to be fully realistic to teach us "if you don't change your ways, see what might happen."
Send Help is using the exact same basic dystopian framework to teach the same basic message, only this time with something of a Tarantino revenge fantasy flavor to it. (Well...from what I can tell from previews. I haven't seen it)
I think it's more disaster rather dystopian. I certainly enjoy a good exploration of things through fiction. But by finishing the novel with "What's to keep the men on submarine from descending into barbarism," Golding is declaring man's nature to be barbaric rather than an exploration man's nature under stress. And working our way up from kids to adults, then leaders (gov't, royalty, the church), god it the ultimate force that keeps man from becoming animalistic. That certainly puts a whole new spin on "god made me this way."
I think the class nuance will fly over most people's heads, especially in the States, since our class system is structured differently; not that we wouldn't understand it, it's just not our default. Then you add in 70 years difference, the banal cruelty begins to become unbelievable.
My wife's grandmother (who's British) gave up her first child for adoption after a year of struggling to take care of her (the father hadn't come back to "do the right thing"). She followed the lady into the room, the lady instructed her to put the baby in the pram, then told her to leave. Realizing this was the last time she was going to see her child, she reached down and the woman told her to stop. She asked, "What are you doing?" "I was just going to give her a hug goodbye." "If you touch that child, I'll have you arrested. She's not yours anymore. Leave now." Like, WTF? How inhuman do you have to be to not see the pain of being forced to give up your child?
We talk about the big things like racism, sexism/misogyny, child abuse and such, but the amount of low level inhumanity inflicted upon other is phenomenal. Yeah, we can be pretty bad, but I think Golding's book would have been much better if he'd explore the impact of stuff like that rather than picking low hanging fruit like "boys be mean to each other."
Calvary Chapel believes that all mankind is corrupt, sinful, and tainted by evil. That our best works amount to garbage in the eyes of God. That no one is righteous. That everyone needs redemption before God through the literal blood of Jesus Christ to avoid burning in fire forever because of how disgustingly tainted and evil by sin we are.
Many Calvary Chapel affiliates also believe in the "Moses model" of leadership in which complete control of the churches in placed in the hands of the senior pastor. Associate pastors answer only to the senior pastor. Power is placed entirely in the hands of a small cadre of men without oversight and ultimately in the hands of one man running the church.
Then they seem surprised to find out that abuse happened.
Look, I don't think most people deserve to burn in a Hell and I can tell you that abuse always thrives in authoritarian systems. Give people unwarranted and unchecked power over other people and abuse will happen sooner or later.
It doesn't matter if it's a pastor with unchecked power, a president, a cop. Give anyone unchecked power over other people and abuse WILL happen. You need checks on power. You need brakes on power. Power has to be bridled and people with power need to be reviewed constantly. You need ways for people to report abuse without retaliation. You need leadership that takes every allegation seriously. You need independent investigators (preferably law enforcement that does not have ties to the organization being investigated.)
This will ALWAYS happen in authoritarian systems. You need to disburse power to the people and watchmen.
Anyone for an oldie but a goodie?
𝑃𝑜𝑤𝑒𝑟 𝑡𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑠 𝑡𝑜 𝑐𝑜𝑟𝑟𝑢𝑝𝑡, 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑎𝑏𝑠𝑜𝑙𝑢𝑡𝑒 𝑝𝑜𝑤𝑒𝑟 𝑐𝑜𝑟𝑟𝑢𝑝𝑡𝑠 𝑎𝑏𝑠𝑜𝑙𝑢𝑡𝑒𝑙𝑦.
-- John Dalberg-Acton
"Calvary Chapel believes that all mankind is corrupt, sinful, and tainted by evil."
Including unborn babies..
Tax. The. Churches. No more free rides. Start messing with their money and wait for the screams to begin. They might even make some reforms, starting with throwing their kiddie diddlers under the bus to save their true god ($$$).
Tax their asses off and make sure that offenders like Laurie and Havsgaard do serious jail time!
In all of Ms. Olivarius’ and Ms. Cervenka’s efforts to round up information to discredit me and to bring false accusations against me, they say nothing of all that we accomplished in the lives of the children..... Exactly, it just like no one ever mentions all the good OJ did as a husband.
Murder one couple and you're tagged for life.
(a) it's not the Prosecution's job to defend the accused. You want a defense attorney, get a defense attorney.
(b) good deeds do not excuse crimes. The law punishes based on separate actions, not your overall resume. If you are a wonderful person who committed theft, that makes you...a wonderful person who goes to jail for theft.
Well. There’s no rest for the wicked. Is there?fifth morning at the new house, and we find yet another child molester in the clergy. But thisone is not merely molesting, he’s pimping.
“ I know what God wants; what I want, God wants.”
And what a stunning admission that is. It explains everything. I have never wanted to molest a kid, and I guess, god agrees.no millstones for me.
HEmant wrote: “ The hypocrisy here is staggering, especially given Laurie’s platform as an evangelist with a massive budget at his disposal.” one more time; THIS IS NOT MERELY HYPOCRISY. THIS IS MORAL CORRUPTION OFVTHE WORST SORT.
They are that which they allegedly hate. They have money for massive lawsuit payoffs. They ignore/protect abusers. Gawd has plenty millstones for them.
After reading this...all I can say is Havsgaard is one sick fuck who needs to be permanently and securely locked away from humanity for humanity's protection. I don't know how a human being - an alleged human being that is - reaches this level of depravity and evil, where he takes enjoyment in the vile, gross acts he perpetrated on these children. He could scarcely be a more dangerous predator if he had actual scales, claws and fangs. He is dangerous because he WILL DO IT AGAIN, the first chance he gets.
I can't believe this fuck isn't already locked away somewhere.
As for all that whining about being so broke he can't protect himself from lawsuits...THIS from a man who threw penniless orphans who displeased him into the street in the winter, and made them beg to come back.
Whine on, whine on harvest goon. Nobody gives a fuck about you. I hope you wind up in maximum security -- in the general population.
I've heard payback is a bitch. I've heard karma is a bitch. I hope they both land on you and eat you alive.
Milhouse: Say the line Bart
Bart: Not a drag queen.
Everyone: Yeah!
Not an LGBTQ+ either.
Not a single mom.
And not an individual who genuinely cares about PEOPLE.
Over on Erin in the Morning, there've been several articles in the last week about GQP-led states pushing (and passing) bills to prevent trans people from using the toilet, all on the grounds that we're supposedly some sort of danger to women and children.
Meanwhile, there's 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 gross misuse of oxygen over here using 𝘢𝘤𝘵𝘶𝘢𝘭 women and children 𝘢𝘴 toilets- to a depressingly familiar chorus of 𝘤𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘬𝘦𝘵 𝘯𝘰𝘪𝘴𝘦𝘴 from the same politicians who are 𝘰𝘩-𝘴𝘰-𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺-𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘯𝘦𝘥 about protecting women and children any time they're pitched a 𝘩𝘺𝘱𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 crime painted in white, pink, and blue.
I can't even. If this isn't the apotheosis of "𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺 𝘢𝘤𝘤𝘶𝘴𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘪𝘴 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯," I am truly at a loss over what could 𝘱𝘰𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘣𝘭𝘺 be a better one.
"These lawsuits have ruined any hope of being able to minister because no church wants to risk a potential lawsuit as well" So, If I read this correctly, churches will hire child molesters just as long as they won't get sued. Gotcha!🙄