How many real world examples do they need to understand that women and children are statistically much safer with drag queens, transgender people, and other LGBTQIA+ individuals than the bigots yelling against them?
Amen. I distinctively remember hiding in club bathrooms with my trans/gay friends and putting on make-up to escape potential threats from the creeps lurking on the outside.
There is no horror that cannot be, and has not been, justified in the name of religion. Organized religion excuses a lot of mental illness and covers up a lot of criminality. That said, as awful as this man and his ilk are, the real fault lies with the enablers who are too lazy or too gullible to think for themselves. I don't know what the solution is here, but victims have to keep coming forward, because they're being listened to far better today than they were just a couple decades ago.
I have been thinking about this a lot lately. The whole psychology of Authoritarians and Patriarchal types is interesting. Are there really 5,000,000 associated with this ministry? That is a lot of people who want to be told just what they want to hear from this guy. And his wife sounds like she just arrived from The Stepford Factory.
Five million taken against a country with something like three hundred and forty million is a pretty small percentage. I think the real point is, there are always going to be people who find thinking for themselves painful to the point of being life threatening. Preachers and other cult leaders seek these people out, and vice versa the herd instinct being what it is in the human species. While the situation may seem insurmountable, a look back gives me a little reason to hope. We've come a long way in my lifetime, and the long game does not favor organized religion.
The problem is, this particular victim was ignored and tossed aside like a used rag doll. Brown got away with a crime without any repercussion. Her reputation is in tatters, while his reputation is glorified in a sense. Tell me what do you think will happen when this happens in the future, because we all know it will? No one will come forward because they will be tossed aside as well. In their eyes, the perpetrator becomes the victim.
If the lead minister of a church isn’t allowed to sexually harass his female employees and congregants, what’s the point of running your own church? I’m surprised the board of elders even bothered with an investigation. Well, we knew what they were up to when they hired the first “independent” investigators. They only changed the team to make it look like they were doing the right thing. This is the result they were going to get no matter who they hired and what they found.
I really don’t understand how anyone can trust a single religious organization. They must truly be desperate to ignore all of history in regards to religions, especially (but not limited to) Christianity.
I agree with most of your cynicism, but it sounds like the "independent investigation" in this case was actually independent and actually investigative. So I would not lump Firefly in with the church elders as assisting in the cover-up.
I didn’t, Firefly was the second investigation team they hired because the first was shady. The board of elders were going to ignore whatever was found by whichever investigators. Firefly did their job, and did it correctly.
Didn't we already see this scenario ? A religious organisation has its reputation in tatters following sexual scandals, hire an independent organisation to conduct an investigation, reject the conclusions, say "See ? Everything is good" and the abuse start again.
I came to a view about life, love and sex a long time ago:
As long as people are adult and consenting, they can do what the heck they like. Swinging from the chandeliers. Gimp masks. Twosomes. Threesomes. Orgies. Whatever. I'll get upset and angry if people are not adult and/or not consenting.
In this particular case, the lady didn't like being kissed or slapped. Not consenting.
Fr, it's always been so strange to me that people get more freaked out by consensually weird sex stuff than they seem to be bothered by sexual assault/abuse/harassment that falls within sexual norms.
A combination of a lack of imagination, plus indoctrination against anything that might be even slightly out of the ordinary strikes me as likely candidates for causation.
In Yorkshire they've got a saying 'There's nowt as queer as folk' - meaning that there are all sorts of people. ('queer' in this case means quaint, unusual, maybe even going so far as weird). On this basis using the yardstick of consent* to judge people's sexual activities strikes me as preferable than sinfulness or morality or whatever.
With this in mind I have read some really worrying developments, inasmuch that there are efforts to amend the teaching of sex and relationships to children and young people, so that they no longer cover consent, e.g. what it means, how to give it, how to withhold it and similar issues. That's a humungous worrying sign!
(*includes the presumption of participants being adult, at least for this note.)
My first exposure to Brown was a couple of decades ago. He was being interviewed and made the claim that the modern LGBTQ+ rights movement began with violence (meaning the Stonewall riot). Did he say anything about what prompted the violence? About the continual harassment of LGBTQ+ people by the police, specifically, or by society, in general? Of course not! He wanted to paint the entire LGBTQ+ community as violent and dangerous. 🤬
Violent pushback against decades of systemic violence against them does not make the LGBTQIA+ community violent and dangerous. It shows that they are normal, willing to defend themselves, and ready to stand against injustice. IOW, heroes.
Genetic fallacy. "Some gays in the 70's illegally rioted" has zero to do with whether gays deserve to be allowed to marry. Unless Mr. Brown wants to be put in jail for giving smallpox-laden blankets to native Americans - because that's his basic argument here.
Christians here in the US commonly rush to 'forgive' their leaders of any kind of sexual abuse while immediately 'blaming' the victim of the crime for said abuse. In this case, we also see the other most common problem with Christian sexual scandals - namely, there will be no actual consequences for Brown or atonement made by him, since the folks with the ability to do anything about it don't care about the victim or the crime enough to demand better. As my beloved said earlier, another day ending in 'y' for the Christian leadership machine.
Men are not ravening beasts with no self control and should not be allowed to pretend they are; allowing this to continue does neither men nor women any good. Sexual abusers, be they male or female, should suffer the consequence of their actions; if they want to engage in the forgiveness process they should atone for their previous behavior. Refusing to insist on both consequences and atonement undermines the forgiveness process and devalues both the victim and the abuser as human beings. This mandatory-and-instant 'forgiveness' Christians are practicing these days with their leaders isn't even window dressing anymore, it's making a mockery of their beliefs for the world to see. It's not just that the victims deserve better, it's that other Christians and bystanders outside the church deserve better, too.
“ he has linked homosexuality with pedophilia and said that a potential president in a same-sex marriage would “contribute to the further degeneration and moral confusion of our society.”
Unlike a President who is a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist, fraudster and conman.
I shudder to think what a conversation between Brown and a certain former Secretary of Transportation would sound like. One side would be sputtering and grasping at straws, while the other delivered facts and cogent observations.
These people are so repressed it’s a sickness. Glad to see more and more stories coming to light. Back in the day, ministers were gossiped about in the shadows as having “bedroom eyes” for all the ladies of their churches. Nothing is more pathetic than a man of power covering up his predatory and misogynistic behavior and then asking his God for forgiveness instead of those he’s harmed. Lame, low effort way to avoid any accountability. I refuse to offer these folks any pity.
OT: The United Nations needs to make room for a new country.
"“Mattel, I don’t know, I’m not so sure. They also said, they’re the only country I’ve heard, they said, well we’re going to go counter. We’re going to try going someplace else. That’s okay. Let him go, and we’ll put a 100 percent tariff on his toys. And he won’t sell one toy in the United States, and that’s their biggest market.” - Idiot in Chief
This is the screwed up thinking of the Evangelicals and many other patriarchal religious group. They tell women that they are in charge. They tell women to dress a certain way, act a certain way, and trust and bow down to men. It is all on the women to be "good". Then, when a man does despicable things, they say they were weak to women's ways. They put the blame on women. They say they could not control themselves. They say they sinned and pray for God's forgiveness. Then we are supposed to feel sorry for them and forgive them. 99% of the time they do it again. It is sick.
When they say they couldn't control themselves, it speaks volumes about both the failure of their religion to instill morality (as it claims to do) and the impotence of their god.
Once again, we need to draw the distinction between a religious sin and a crime according to secular law. Michael Brown is clearly guilty of both, but apparently has no desire to recognize his secular responsibilities or consequences of his actions. He and his supporters will do everything they can to obscure his responsibility to the law, never mind maintain his ministry.
What is needed now is that law enforcement needs to step up and do their job, presuming they have the guts to do so.
Trump may very well be the ultimate scofflaw, and to counter him, it needs to be demonstrated that the ultimate scofflaw can still fall victim to the law he disregards.
Seems kinda marginal in terms of probability of success. We've got, what, a victim statement and not much more? This is not to throw any shade on Ms. Erin, but rather to say that there is a big difference between "happened" and "demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt."
A civil suit with it's lower standard ("more likely than not") would have a much higher p(win)...but that would need to come from the victim, and it doesn't appear she intends to pursue it.
Not. A. Drag. Queen.
How many real world examples do they need to understand that women and children are statistically much safer with drag queens, transgender people, and other LGBTQIA+ individuals than the bigots yelling against them?
Do you remember my proposal from a while back? That every minister is required to be accompanied by a drag queen whenever he is leaving his house?
It would be a very effective public safety measure.
Amen. I distinctively remember hiding in club bathrooms with my trans/gay friends and putting on make-up to escape potential threats from the creeps lurking on the outside.
There is no horror that cannot be, and has not been, justified in the name of religion. Organized religion excuses a lot of mental illness and covers up a lot of criminality. That said, as awful as this man and his ilk are, the real fault lies with the enablers who are too lazy or too gullible to think for themselves. I don't know what the solution is here, but victims have to keep coming forward, because they're being listened to far better today than they were just a couple decades ago.
I have been thinking about this a lot lately. The whole psychology of Authoritarians and Patriarchal types is interesting. Are there really 5,000,000 associated with this ministry? That is a lot of people who want to be told just what they want to hear from this guy. And his wife sounds like she just arrived from The Stepford Factory.
Five million taken against a country with something like three hundred and forty million is a pretty small percentage. I think the real point is, there are always going to be people who find thinking for themselves painful to the point of being life threatening. Preachers and other cult leaders seek these people out, and vice versa the herd instinct being what it is in the human species. While the situation may seem insurmountable, a look back gives me a little reason to hope. We've come a long way in my lifetime, and the long game does not favor organized religion.
I hope you are right! It is why they are trying so hard to get theofascist christianity into the public schools - recruitment is way down.
About 2800/1700/1500 years of brainwashing, wars, forced conversion, and still none of the abrahamic religion managed to convert all the population.
And not one whit of proof among the lot of them! My grandparents were all skeptics. I am so glad I got that from them.
May you be an oracle.
The problem is, this particular victim was ignored and tossed aside like a used rag doll. Brown got away with a crime without any repercussion. Her reputation is in tatters, while his reputation is glorified in a sense. Tell me what do you think will happen when this happens in the future, because we all know it will? No one will come forward because they will be tossed aside as well. In their eyes, the perpetrator becomes the victim.
He Sinned! He repented! Jesus has forgiven him! Glory be!
Sadly, that is exactly how these people think.
A civil lawsuit ? It's probably too late for a criminal ohe.
That's a question for a lawyer. I don't know the answer.
Hitchens: "Religion poisons everything."
If the lead minister of a church isn’t allowed to sexually harass his female employees and congregants, what’s the point of running your own church? I’m surprised the board of elders even bothered with an investigation. Well, we knew what they were up to when they hired the first “independent” investigators. They only changed the team to make it look like they were doing the right thing. This is the result they were going to get no matter who they hired and what they found.
I really don’t understand how anyone can trust a single religious organization. They must truly be desperate to ignore all of history in regards to religions, especially (but not limited to) Christianity.
I agree with most of your cynicism, but it sounds like the "independent investigation" in this case was actually independent and actually investigative. So I would not lump Firefly in with the church elders as assisting in the cover-up.
I didn’t, Firefly was the second investigation team they hired because the first was shady. The board of elders were going to ignore whatever was found by whichever investigators. Firefly did their job, and did it correctly.
Didn't we already see this scenario ? A religious organisation has its reputation in tatters following sexual scandals, hire an independent organisation to conduct an investigation, reject the conclusions, say "See ? Everything is good" and the abuse start again.
I came to a view about life, love and sex a long time ago:
As long as people are adult and consenting, they can do what the heck they like. Swinging from the chandeliers. Gimp masks. Twosomes. Threesomes. Orgies. Whatever. I'll get upset and angry if people are not adult and/or not consenting.
In this particular case, the lady didn't like being kissed or slapped. Not consenting.
I am angry!
Fr, it's always been so strange to me that people get more freaked out by consensually weird sex stuff than they seem to be bothered by sexual assault/abuse/harassment that falls within sexual norms.
A combination of a lack of imagination, plus indoctrination against anything that might be even slightly out of the ordinary strikes me as likely candidates for causation.
In Yorkshire they've got a saying 'There's nowt as queer as folk' - meaning that there are all sorts of people. ('queer' in this case means quaint, unusual, maybe even going so far as weird). On this basis using the yardstick of consent* to judge people's sexual activities strikes me as preferable than sinfulness or morality or whatever.
With this in mind I have read some really worrying developments, inasmuch that there are efforts to amend the teaching of sex and relationships to children and young people, so that they no longer cover consent, e.g. what it means, how to give it, how to withhold it and similar issues. That's a humungous worrying sign!
(*includes the presumption of participants being adult, at least for this note.)
Pretty sure you're not alone with that anger business!
👍👍👍
Christianity is forever about circling the wagons and the victims be damned.
May this ministry of misery continue to bleed adherents and find itself on the scrap heap of history.
R'Amen!
My first exposure to Brown was a couple of decades ago. He was being interviewed and made the claim that the modern LGBTQ+ rights movement began with violence (meaning the Stonewall riot). Did he say anything about what prompted the violence? About the continual harassment of LGBTQ+ people by the police, specifically, or by society, in general? Of course not! He wanted to paint the entire LGBTQ+ community as violent and dangerous. 🤬
Violent pushback against decades of systemic violence against them does not make the LGBTQIA+ community violent and dangerous. It shows that they are normal, willing to defend themselves, and ready to stand against injustice. IOW, heroes.
Seems like there’s a phrase for that that the right recognizes. …. Oh yeah, Stand Your Ground.
Genetic fallacy. "Some gays in the 70's illegally rioted" has zero to do with whether gays deserve to be allowed to marry. Unless Mr. Brown wants to be put in jail for giving smallpox-laden blankets to native Americans - because that's his basic argument here.
Why I am an anti-theist.
https://scontent-ord5-3.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/495283682_624648047269564_7649448405885074246_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=127cfc&_nc_ohc=I3yLQZpKsx8Q7kNvwFgd1V8&_nc_oc=AdlBM4SqbNAIe7-rK2bp8KGoyEtH-8FvG3pxc7M9L6052_oKYiAbUNG_3UZoUZK_zmY&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-3.xx&_nc_gid=O7smPbXgDDwqEDxVqOfDoQ&oh=00_AfJrSb49O4rOjt0kwB6BxlgpkgplPbPBpBx9vyDH8gu9ng&oe=682458BC
Andy knows whereof he speaks ... and he's a pretty fine cartoonist, too!
Christians here in the US commonly rush to 'forgive' their leaders of any kind of sexual abuse while immediately 'blaming' the victim of the crime for said abuse. In this case, we also see the other most common problem with Christian sexual scandals - namely, there will be no actual consequences for Brown or atonement made by him, since the folks with the ability to do anything about it don't care about the victim or the crime enough to demand better. As my beloved said earlier, another day ending in 'y' for the Christian leadership machine.
Men are not ravening beasts with no self control and should not be allowed to pretend they are; allowing this to continue does neither men nor women any good. Sexual abusers, be they male or female, should suffer the consequence of their actions; if they want to engage in the forgiveness process they should atone for their previous behavior. Refusing to insist on both consequences and atonement undermines the forgiveness process and devalues both the victim and the abuser as human beings. This mandatory-and-instant 'forgiveness' Christians are practicing these days with their leaders isn't even window dressing anymore, it's making a mockery of their beliefs for the world to see. It's not just that the victims deserve better, it's that other Christians and bystanders outside the church deserve better, too.
I IS FORGIVEN!!! jesus told me so.
“ he has linked homosexuality with pedophilia and said that a potential president in a same-sex marriage would “contribute to the further degeneration and moral confusion of our society.”
Unlike a President who is a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist, fraudster and conman.
I shudder to think what a conversation between Brown and a certain former Secretary of Transportation would sound like. One side would be sputtering and grasping at straws, while the other delivered facts and cogent observations.
I doubt Brown would last long.
These people are so repressed it’s a sickness. Glad to see more and more stories coming to light. Back in the day, ministers were gossiped about in the shadows as having “bedroom eyes” for all the ladies of their churches. Nothing is more pathetic than a man of power covering up his predatory and misogynistic behavior and then asking his God for forgiveness instead of those he’s harmed. Lame, low effort way to avoid any accountability. I refuse to offer these folks any pity.
OT: The United Nations needs to make room for a new country.
"“Mattel, I don’t know, I’m not so sure. They also said, they’re the only country I’ve heard, they said, well we’re going to go counter. We’re going to try going someplace else. That’s okay. Let him go, and we’ll put a 100 percent tariff on his toys. And he won’t sell one toy in the United States, and that’s their biggest market.” - Idiot in Chief
Dump also thinks Mattel is a he.
We have always been at war with Mattel.
Wow ... and here I thought we were at war with Hasbro! 😁
Well, isn't Matty Mattel a boy? Just like Sister Bell is a girl? 🤣🤣🤣
Hahahahaha 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Well, this is the guy who already levied tariffs on a bunch of penguins, so...
However high the tariffs on the penguins are, he still won’t be able to match their (individual) IQ.
Obligatory maybe?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyhrYis509A
1) still not a drag queen
2) “messianic Judaism” doesn’t exist. It’s just Christianity with extra steps. Ugh. Those folks make me itch
Damn, still can't find my shocked face. Oh well.......
It's probably on the Voyager probe, headed out of the solar system right now. That's where I left mine...
Also. Many years ago. 🚀
Here's mine:
:|
This is the screwed up thinking of the Evangelicals and many other patriarchal religious group. They tell women that they are in charge. They tell women to dress a certain way, act a certain way, and trust and bow down to men. It is all on the women to be "good". Then, when a man does despicable things, they say they were weak to women's ways. They put the blame on women. They say they could not control themselves. They say they sinned and pray for God's forgiveness. Then we are supposed to feel sorry for them and forgive them. 99% of the time they do it again. It is sick.
When they say they couldn't control themselves, it speaks volumes about both the failure of their religion to instill morality (as it claims to do) and the impotence of their god.
👆👆👆🎯
Once again, predators protecting their own kind. This should come as no surprise to anyone, anymore. Just more of the same old bullshit.
Once again, we need to draw the distinction between a religious sin and a crime according to secular law. Michael Brown is clearly guilty of both, but apparently has no desire to recognize his secular responsibilities or consequences of his actions. He and his supporters will do everything they can to obscure his responsibility to the law, never mind maintain his ministry.
What is needed now is that law enforcement needs to step up and do their job, presuming they have the guts to do so.
When you have a religion that acts as a Get Out of Jail FREE card, it means you never have to say you're sorry and never have to apologize or atone.
No wonder xtians worship Trump, a man they claim as one of their own.
Trump may very well be the ultimate scofflaw, and to counter him, it needs to be demonstrated that the ultimate scofflaw can still fall victim to the law he disregards.
Seems kinda marginal in terms of probability of success. We've got, what, a victim statement and not much more? This is not to throw any shade on Ms. Erin, but rather to say that there is a big difference between "happened" and "demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt."
A civil suit with it's lower standard ("more likely than not") would have a much higher p(win)...but that would need to come from the victim, and it doesn't appear she intends to pursue it.