"Their argument was that Catholicism required them to reject students who have gay parents and staffers who are in same-sex relationships.
Oh ? So explain how and why there is still non taxpayers funded catholic schools and colleges in France when we have mandatory pre-K and 5 levels of scholarships ?
‘Having to abide by those non-discrimination policies violates our religious rights.’"
Forcing your religion on taxpayers is violating THEIR religious and civil rights.
Ohhhhhhhhhh, I could tell you stories! I used to be in one of those cults. They believe they were meant to own the earth and rule over everyone, right down to how they live their very private lives. And anyone who stands in their way is Satan himself.
They've got a lot of nerve complaining that other businesses have an unfair advantage. Religious schools already start with advantages other businesses don't have. Tax incentives, lack of regulatory oversight and donations from members are all things a non-religious school would love to have. Claiming that the playing field won't be level until they also get tax payer money that they did not contribute to in the first place is just beyond belief.
They believe that unless the playing field is tilted heavily in their favor it is not level. Add geometry to the list of things they do not understand.
And don't forget the steady stream of other people's sexy, sexy chidrenz for them to abuse because of the twisted libidos of the abstinent priests, coupled with the unwarranted trust parents have for "men of the cloth."
Nope. That is not what happened. It created a program that everyone can participate in, provided they follow some simple rules. There is no mandate to participate. The RCC has enough money to subsidize their preschool program and charge parents the same as they would pay elsewhere. Hell, they have enough money to provide their program for free. Then they could discriminate all they want and still be "competitive". Church greed, aka Yahweh's gambling problem, seems like the only thing driving them to demand the government cash.
True, they don't pay property tax. But, i have pastored churches in Kansas City, Mo, California, and Arkansas. None of these states provided churches relief from sales Tax.
It is not the government’s job to ensure your organization gets customers. Whether it’s a corporation, small business, religion, or non-profit, attracting customers is your responsibility. Just as the public school system would make the private schools less competitive since the public schools are free, the public school system paying for preschool for all students makes it more difficult for the private schools to compete. What that means is that the private schools need to work to make their school worth paying for, up your game, raise your standards, be the best around. What it doesn’t mean; sue for funds you aren’t entitled to, aren’t willing to follow the rules for, and incapable of utilizing for the benefit of the community.
Plus, there is no argument for any Catholic anything to plead poverty. Fuck you. The Vatican has more wealth than half the countries in the world and yet you cannot provide a little bit of charity or, more realistically, pay for your responsibilities. The wealth the Catholic Church owns was also stolen, its blood money, and it’s taken from those least capable of sparing it. But they’re here demanding more from the US government and complaining that this money comes with strings. Fuck off. If you can’t compete, you lose. Too bad, so sad. Stop protecting pedophiles.
CATHOLICS: "We demand the right to discriminate against the public and we demand that the public pay our way while we do it! And we damned well refuse to give up our tax-exmpt status! Oh, HELL no to that!"
Actually, while their tax-exempt status is annoying, a bigger deal for me would be mandatory reporting of abuse, spousal, but especially child and sexual abuse.
They claim that if people knew they might get reported they might not confess and endanger their immortal soul. Confess, go to prison, refuse, and go to hell. I don't see the problem with this scenario.
Especially since they condemn to eternal torture a man who has sex with another consenting adult man for the 'sin' of not being ashamed. The much worse 'sin' of child rape should require a special kind of torture for the whole of eternity.
That's confession. I don't know what the regs are for becoming a preschool teacher, they may require mandatory reporting.
But you bring up a good point. If the state is going to subcontract out preschool education to private actors, they should ideally require they follow public school health and safety practices and teacher accreditation standards that *include* the teachers being mandatory reporters.
They didn't succeed in Norway. Anyone who knows about sexual abuse risk prison if they don't report it to the police or somebody that can report it for them.
Conservative politics, and conservative religion are natural allies. It is a symbiotic relationship that has dealt the human race nothing but grief. Just about every religious sect is bigoted to some extent, but they share a common mentality that it's okay if they do it. Religion is always self-justifying.
"The lawsuit said enrolling children with gay parents into an Archdiocesan school “is likely to lead to intractable conflicts” because a “Catholic school cannot treat a same-sex couple as a family equivalent to the natural family without compromising its mission and Catholic identity.”
There was a simple solution to that, of course: Just don’t accept the state’s money."
There is an even simpler solution than that. Stop pretending that that's what they are required to do, stop pretending that they are treating the same-sex couple as a family equivalent to the "natural family" stop pretending that it's compromising its mission, and stop pretending that it has anything to do with Catholic identity.
All of that shit is made up.
"We will help this family but not YOUR family" is simply claiming that you will not help families that you don't like.
Compromising your mission? You are compromising your mission by refusing to help children that need help, families that need help, making the world a better place.
And as hemant points out, if you are refusing to help families where the parents aren't married, where the parents are divorced and remarried, families were adultery is that the base of the family, something of Jesus did not like at all, you are simply being hypocrites.
“Catholic school cannot treat a same-sex couple as a family equivalent to the natural family without compromising its mission and Catholic identity.”
I do no know what that even means in the context of preschool parents. Cutting a check, dropping the kid off and picking them up, having the parent create outfits for school plays...none of these things require believing one parent is 'equivalent' to some other parent. If you think Alice's dad Bob has a godly relationship while Charlie's dad Dave is a sinner, the school certainly can. But it has nothing to do with the kid. Heck, I doubt there's a teacher or school administrator in the world that *doesn't* have a better opinion of some parents over others.
I have shunned my very kkkatlik cousin. He claims he supports me then turns around and supports a pope who has twice in recent weeks proclaimed I deserve NO rights as a Gay man.
Yeah, it's trite and simplistic and reductive. It's also the way things damned well should be. Here, the Catholic Church is acting like a spoiled brat (nothing new there), complaining that their BIGOTED preschool program should be funded in the same way the state-sponsored, free-to-parents preschool program is. The Catholics essentially want to be rewarded for their bias, and the city of Denver doesn't seem to want it to work that way.
Like Hemant, I worry about what SCOTUS is going to make of this issue, especially considering that favoring public funds for a clearly religious organization that is competing with the state and a secular offering for preschoolers just adds fuel to the fire that is burning away the Court's credibility.
The 800 pound gorilla in the room everyone’s ignoring is the fact THESE PEOPLE DON’T PAY TAXES, which I certainly think makes up for any government-supplied goodies they might miss out on. Kinda puts their bleating about “fairness” in a different light too.
The State says "Fine, you can enforce that restriction. But to get the funds you must prove that all parents of children in your school have not violated any of the 10 Commandments nor any other published tenet of the RCC."
No cherry picking, no winking, no indulgences. Enforce ALL rules on ALL clients or no money.
Given that the bible says contradictory things, there's no such thing as 'no cherry picking.'
And from a self-centered point of view, I absolutely positively do not want the government spending time, money, or resources deciding/defining what counts as real Christianity vs. heresy.
My thought was that no (or minimal) enforcement would be necessary. The Church would realize that they would have zero students if they enforced ALL tenets and would either drop their restrictions on LGBTQ clients or drop their request for funds.
But they don't. Part of the whole religious freedom thing we are supposed to value is that not the government nor anyone else gets to tell a person what specific religious tenets they must believe. If Alice the Christian holds Tenets A B and C while Bob the Christian holds C D and E, that's perfectly allowed by society, by law, by pretty much everything external to Alice's and Bob's churches. And yes, that's true even if B is the opposite of what the 'red letter' Jesus quotes say in the bible, and it's true if E doesn't come from the bible at all but from what Bob read in his alphabet soup yesterday.
A *Christian church* may care about that. Heck, they have fought wars and killed each other over which of A B C D E are true Christian tenets vs false ones. But WE don't engage in those shenanigans. And neither should our government.
“The religious schools are arguing… ‘Having to abide by those non-discrimination policies violates our religious rights.’ ” from Denver Churches, prioritizing bigotry". This is what gets me, and I am damn angry about the whole thing. This is simple: if you want your child to be educated by your religious organization's schools than go ahead, by all means, but pay for it yourself. I am tired of our public schools suffering and not getting the funding they deserve because we are funding religious schools. ENOUGH.
"Their argument was that Catholicism required them to reject students who have gay parents and staffers who are in same-sex relationships.
Oh ? So explain how and why there is still non taxpayers funded catholic schools and colleges in France when we have mandatory pre-K and 5 levels of scholarships ?
‘Having to abide by those non-discrimination policies violates our religious rights.’"
Forcing your religion on taxpayers is violating THEIR religious and civil rights.
“If we can’t force our religion on you, we are being persecuted”
I can't believe they really believe that. They can't be that selfish? Right?
In the U.S.? The entire culture is built on selfishness.
I know, but I don't want to know that. And I certainly don't want to recognise that selfishness has become a major trait for us Norwegians too.
Ohhhhhhhhhh, I could tell you stories! I used to be in one of those cults. They believe they were meant to own the earth and rule over everyone, right down to how they live their very private lives. And anyone who stands in their way is Satan himself.
“How dare you deny our religious right to deny people basic human rights!!1!11”
It would be funny if "they" didn't believe exactly that.
Exactly that!
From the Catholic POV, forcing religion on taxpayers is just the Great Commission at work. Whoop-whoop. 😝
🖕🖕
My sentiments, exactly.
With a cactus.
Yes, the Great Commission is the deed/title/order/whatever that proves their ownership/authority over every damn thing in the universe.
And if you believe that one I've got some real swell swampland in Florida I'd love to sell you!
They believe it. And they just might snap up that swampland in Florida, so they could be with their own kind.
Reptiles?
They don't care about your religious and civil liberties.
C'est pas nouveau.
They've got a lot of nerve complaining that other businesses have an unfair advantage. Religious schools already start with advantages other businesses don't have. Tax incentives, lack of regulatory oversight and donations from members are all things a non-religious school would love to have. Claiming that the playing field won't be level until they also get tax payer money that they did not contribute to in the first place is just beyond belief.
I agree. The tax exemption has got to be revoked nationally.
They believe that unless the playing field is tilted heavily in their favor it is not level. Add geometry to the list of things they do not understand.
Kinda like the Electoral College and gerrymandering on the part of the Republican Party, innit.
THAT should have been outlawed decades ago.
And don't forget the steady stream of other people's sexy, sexy chidrenz for them to abuse because of the twisted libidos of the abstinent priests, coupled with the unwarranted trust parents have for "men of the cloth."
They believe in Noah and the flood and a lot more rubbish. I would say they stay in character.
👏👍🎯
𝐵𝑦 𝑐𝑟𝑒𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑎 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑔𝑟𝑎𝑚 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑣𝑖𝑑𝑒𝑠 “𝑢𝑛𝑖𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑎𝑙” 𝑓𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑔𝑟𝑎𝑚𝑠, 𝐶𝑜𝑙𝑜𝑟𝑎𝑑𝑜 ℎ𝑎𝑠 𝑐𝑜𝑟𝑛𝑒𝑟𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑚𝑎𝑟𝑘𝑒𝑡 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙 𝑠𝑒𝑟𝑣𝑖𝑐𝑒𝑠.
Nope. That is not what happened. It created a program that everyone can participate in, provided they follow some simple rules. There is no mandate to participate. The RCC has enough money to subsidize their preschool program and charge parents the same as they would pay elsewhere. Hell, they have enough money to provide their program for free. Then they could discriminate all they want and still be "competitive". Church greed, aka Yahweh's gambling problem, seems like the only thing driving them to demand the government cash.
They have an advantage over the secular private schools. They don't pay taxes on the school property or school supplies, etc.
Indeed. They are already effectively getting government money. They're just pissed they have to follow some rules to get more.
True, they don't pay property tax. But, i have pastored churches in Kansas City, Mo, California, and Arkansas. None of these states provided churches relief from sales Tax.
Both Oklahoma and Texas provide sales tax relief to all non-profits.
Edit: it does take extra paperwork.
Same with Florida. Not sure about Minnesota.
How do you get italics for the quotes?
I don't know how anyone else handles that, but I usually go to: https://yaytext.com/
It is not the government’s job to ensure your organization gets customers. Whether it’s a corporation, small business, religion, or non-profit, attracting customers is your responsibility. Just as the public school system would make the private schools less competitive since the public schools are free, the public school system paying for preschool for all students makes it more difficult for the private schools to compete. What that means is that the private schools need to work to make their school worth paying for, up your game, raise your standards, be the best around. What it doesn’t mean; sue for funds you aren’t entitled to, aren’t willing to follow the rules for, and incapable of utilizing for the benefit of the community.
Plus, there is no argument for any Catholic anything to plead poverty. Fuck you. The Vatican has more wealth than half the countries in the world and yet you cannot provide a little bit of charity or, more realistically, pay for your responsibilities. The wealth the Catholic Church owns was also stolen, its blood money, and it’s taken from those least capable of sparing it. But they’re here demanding more from the US government and complaining that this money comes with strings. Fuck off. If you can’t compete, you lose. Too bad, so sad. Stop protecting pedophiles.
"It is not the government’s job to ensure your organization gets customers."
A lack of customers usually means that there is something wrong with the product, the service or both.
CATHOLICS: "We demand the right to discriminate against the public and we demand that the public pay our way while we do it! And we damned well refuse to give up our tax-exmpt status! Oh, HELL no to that!"
Actually, while their tax-exempt status is annoying, a bigger deal for me would be mandatory reporting of abuse, spousal, but especially child and sexual abuse.
Why is that not mandatory now?
Religious persecution, er seal of confession, er shut up!
They claim that if people knew they might get reported they might not confess and endanger their immortal soul. Confess, go to prison, refuse, and go to hell. I don't see the problem with this scenario.
And the imaginary soul of a predator is more important than the well being of a child or anyone else.
gordamitee loves free will of the priest, but not the kid that does not want to be raped.
Especially since they condemn to eternal torture a man who has sex with another consenting adult man for the 'sin' of not being ashamed. The much worse 'sin' of child rape should require a special kind of torture for the whole of eternity.
redbird cupich (Chcago) "suspended" a priest recently for raping a kid. He outright fired 2 priests for consensual sex. HUGE FUCKUP!!!
Not really surprised.
That's confession. I don't know what the regs are for becoming a preschool teacher, they may require mandatory reporting.
But you bring up a good point. If the state is going to subcontract out preschool education to private actors, they should ideally require they follow public school health and safety practices and teacher accreditation standards that *include* the teachers being mandatory reporters.
They block any and every attempt in as many countries as they can.
They didn't succeed in Norway. Anyone who knows about sexual abuse risk prison if they don't report it to the police or somebody that can report it for them.
They succeeded here. Shameful.
Conservative politics, and conservative religion are natural allies. It is a symbiotic relationship that has dealt the human race nothing but grief. Just about every religious sect is bigoted to some extent, but they share a common mentality that it's okay if they do it. Religion is always self-justifying.
And somehow, they have this warped view that they're the "Good Guys!"
Everybody believes they're the hero of the story.
"The lawsuit said enrolling children with gay parents into an Archdiocesan school “is likely to lead to intractable conflicts” because a “Catholic school cannot treat a same-sex couple as a family equivalent to the natural family without compromising its mission and Catholic identity.”
There was a simple solution to that, of course: Just don’t accept the state’s money."
There is an even simpler solution than that. Stop pretending that that's what they are required to do, stop pretending that they are treating the same-sex couple as a family equivalent to the "natural family" stop pretending that it's compromising its mission, and stop pretending that it has anything to do with Catholic identity.
All of that shit is made up.
"We will help this family but not YOUR family" is simply claiming that you will not help families that you don't like.
Compromising your mission? You are compromising your mission by refusing to help children that need help, families that need help, making the world a better place.
And as hemant points out, if you are refusing to help families where the parents aren't married, where the parents are divorced and remarried, families were adultery is that the base of the family, something of Jesus did not like at all, you are simply being hypocrites.
“Catholic school cannot treat a same-sex couple as a family equivalent to the natural family without compromising its mission and Catholic identity.”
I do no know what that even means in the context of preschool parents. Cutting a check, dropping the kid off and picking them up, having the parent create outfits for school plays...none of these things require believing one parent is 'equivalent' to some other parent. If you think Alice's dad Bob has a godly relationship while Charlie's dad Dave is a sinner, the school certainly can. But it has nothing to do with the kid. Heck, I doubt there's a teacher or school administrator in the world that *doesn't* have a better opinion of some parents over others.
It means absolutely nothing other than to make some people less than others.
That's the whole idea of hierarchy, isn't it?
Even though all are supposed to be the same in Christ. Funny how they never read their own book, except the dirty parts.
Hypocrites? Say it ain't so. Christians would never be hypocrites, it goes against their "holy" book.
Jesus never talked about it at all. I think he actually liked hypocrites. After all, he told them to throw stones.
Matthew 5:6
I have shunned my very kkkatlik cousin. He claims he supports me then turns around and supports a pope who has twice in recent weeks proclaimed I deserve NO rights as a Gay man.
Good point. Do they ask married opposite sex couples if they are swingers? 🤔
They'd be shocked at so many of their conservative attendees answers. If they told the truth.
If you hate the gay, you don't get to play.
Yeah, it's trite and simplistic and reductive. It's also the way things damned well should be. Here, the Catholic Church is acting like a spoiled brat (nothing new there), complaining that their BIGOTED preschool program should be funded in the same way the state-sponsored, free-to-parents preschool program is. The Catholics essentially want to be rewarded for their bias, and the city of Denver doesn't seem to want it to work that way.
Like Hemant, I worry about what SCOTUS is going to make of this issue, especially considering that favoring public funds for a clearly religious organization that is competing with the state and a secular offering for preschoolers just adds fuel to the fire that is burning away the Court's credibility.
No religious organization, a school or otherwise, should get one cent of public money for any reason.
Hear-freaking-HEAR!!!
Well, before Troublesh00ter beats me to it...
azquotes.com/quote/575142
Noice!
I was tempted (I mean, let's be real; this post is a natural for it!), but I figured I'd let you throw it down this time! 😁
I thank you, kind sir. :)
that's rich coming from an organized pedophile cabal.
They look at other xtian sects and religions with their own child sexual abuse problems and scoff at them as rank amateurs.
👆👆👆🎯🎯🎯
The 800 pound gorilla in the room everyone’s ignoring is the fact THESE PEOPLE DON’T PAY TAXES, which I certainly think makes up for any government-supplied goodies they might miss out on. Kinda puts their bleating about “fairness” in a different light too.
It would be fair if every other business didn't need to pay their taxes too. The downside would be no schools at all.
Shhhh. Don't give them ideas.
That too would be a nightmare.
One more reason, of a long list of reasons, that this former Catholic is now a die hard atheist.
The fastest-growing religious group in the world: former Catholics.
Here's my idea:
The State says "Fine, you can enforce that restriction. But to get the funds you must prove that all parents of children in your school have not violated any of the 10 Commandments nor any other published tenet of the RCC."
No cherry picking, no winking, no indulgences. Enforce ALL rules on ALL clients or no money.
"....not violated any of the 10 Commandments nor any other published tenet of the RCC'...."
...and, especially have never seethed a kid in its mother's milk.
Given that the bible says contradictory things, there's no such thing as 'no cherry picking.'
And from a self-centered point of view, I absolutely positively do not want the government spending time, money, or resources deciding/defining what counts as real Christianity vs. heresy.
My thought was that no (or minimal) enforcement would be necessary. The Church would realize that they would have zero students if they enforced ALL tenets and would either drop their restrictions on LGBTQ clients or drop their request for funds.
If you believe that you got to be religious.
But they don't. Part of the whole religious freedom thing we are supposed to value is that not the government nor anyone else gets to tell a person what specific religious tenets they must believe. If Alice the Christian holds Tenets A B and C while Bob the Christian holds C D and E, that's perfectly allowed by society, by law, by pretty much everything external to Alice's and Bob's churches. And yes, that's true even if B is the opposite of what the 'red letter' Jesus quotes say in the bible, and it's true if E doesn't come from the bible at all but from what Bob read in his alphabet soup yesterday.
A *Christian church* may care about that. Heck, they have fought wars and killed each other over which of A B C D E are true Christian tenets vs false ones. But WE don't engage in those shenanigans. And neither should our government.
Who requires you to treat the children of same sex couples differently, Archbishop?
Him I guess. It certainly is not me.
“The religious schools are arguing… ‘Having to abide by those non-discrimination policies violates our religious rights.’ ” from Denver Churches, prioritizing bigotry". This is what gets me, and I am damn angry about the whole thing. This is simple: if you want your child to be educated by your religious organization's schools than go ahead, by all means, but pay for it yourself. I am tired of our public schools suffering and not getting the funding they deserve because we are funding religious schools. ENOUGH.
The Archdiocese want to have their cake and eat it too. It doesn't want YOU to have your Kate and Edith too.
Question: if a clergyman boinks a child while wearing a condom, is that TWO sins?
Mockery is my constant response to this inanity.
Inanity or insanity?