OT: My bride and I are going on a cruise in a week or two through the Alaskan Inner Passage (fortuitous that our travel plans are a cruise given her broken foot and attendant knee scooter) and we end up in Vancouver where we will spend a couple of days. I’m going to wear my “Dear Canada We Hate Him Too” t-shirt.
I’ve been on one cruise before — Galveston to Yucatán and back — and was bored out of my mind while at sea. I expect the scenery in the Inner Passage to be much better. Both of these cruises were really family reunions. “Cousins cruise” and it’s a good way for us to get together. To the extent that the two of us cruise in the future I want the ships to be way smaller than these multi-thousand passenger ships.
The scenery is nice, but early on it's nothing special if you live or frequently get up to the northwest. After the ship gets north, the shore excursions are pretty much daily and there's at least one day where the ship sails up to where a glacier drops into the sea. That was cool.
Hey MAGA! THIS is what religious freedom looks like. This is what separation of church and state means. This is what secular actually is. Secular does not mean atheist. It does not meam anti-Christian or anti-religion.
I am getting real tired of all these far right crazies screaming persecution when they are just being told that they have to follow the same rules as everyone else.
Any MAGA would listen to that and immediately respond with heresy. I'm not certain they are capable of acknowledging that there's any other religion than Christianity, and if so anything else has got to be of the devil.
Then too, that's what happens when people are wearing god-glasses.
Jesus himself banned praying in public. What do xtians not understand about their own savior telling them to go to their closet and pray IN SECRET? Why do they defy him on this? Why do they call him lord and then ignore his words?
"What do stains not understand about their own savior telling the to go to their closet and pray IN SECRET?"
That wasn't actually Jesus talking. Satan had actually managed to possess Jesus for a few minutes during his lifetime and during that very brief period of time, that's when the latter uttered those words./s
The point of Jesus' statement was to not pray to get attention and praise from others. It was not a prohibition on all public prayer. Jesus himself prayed in public. He prayed in public before feeding the multitudes (Matthew 14:19), at the tomb of Lazarus (John 11:41-42) and on the cross as he was dying (Matthew 27:46). And in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector, both pray in public (Luke 18:10-14) but only the Tax Collector had his prayer answered by God. And, there are several examples of prayers in public by Christians such as Paul (Acts 20:36) before leaving Ephesus. Sometimes, it astounds me that some skeptics embrace the same extreme literalism as the worst of the fundamentalists when reading the Bible.
I will kinda agree with you here. I read that passage as similar to what I said above: if you're at a ceremony in honor of someone and you put them first in your thoughts and words, then you're probably speaking fine, whether what you say is secular or a prayer. In contrast, if you're putting yourself first and trying to virtue signal, then your words are probably not fine - again, regardless of whether they're a prayer or secular.
The sad thing about the virtue signalers is that they think they impress others by dragging things out and consequently boring the you know what out of the captive audience. In contrast, the so-called Lord's Prayer can be said in less than a minute.
Obviously, the actual prayers and the locations of those prayers (at least the private ones) will never be known publicly, so it seems a safe gambit either way.
Even when I was a child going to the local Southern Baptist Church every Sunday, it seemed a major disconnect that we have to make requests of an "omniscient" being.
Since, through experience, I've embraced the "connectedness of all things". After all, there are (theoretically) only two states for existence to take: perfect order or total chaos.
Since we are certainly not existing in a state of total chaos, and most of this reality we inhabit will never be made clear to any human mind, to me "perfect order" is something I work to understand, knowing this human body / mind never really will.
(Sorry. Just an aside. No reply expected. This belief just helps me locate my calm center. And I do NOT pray...or prey.)
i'd be okay with expanding the 'funerals not public' exception. Been to a bunch of federal promotion and retirement ceremonies, I really have no problem with a speaker at those giving their own personal faith statement as long as it's something that is supportive of the person being honored. Look, if the family member speaking can do it, I don't see why someone else can't.
The problem with officials speaking religiously at such ceremonies is when they're being dickish by shoving their religion where it's not wanted. Using someone else's event for their own personal goals. But if you're coming together to honor someone, and they would be honored by some sincere religious sentiment on your part, then by all means feel free to give it. Put them first, you're probably good. Put you first, you're not doing it right.
If a Christian member of the CAF was at a “public event” at which a non-Christian CAF chaplain was speaking, would the former appreciate the non-exclusive comments of the latter?
The tribalism here really should be "we are both military, and you are representing the military in a positive manner", not "I am Christian, so anytime any chaplain speaks I will be offended if it's not Jesus Jesus Jesus."
The Christian member wouldn't care. He's just trying to keep his head down and get his job done. The Christian chaplain, however, might be a bit miffed that the non-Christian chaplain didn't stick to Christianity only. Christian Fucking Privilege is spreading north.
If the United States can't be more egalitarian as it comes to the treatment of religion in the military, at least our neighbors to the north can be so bothered. No great surprise that even the Christians in Canada want to get bent out of shape because they're not getting preferential treatment.
I don't know how we get the message across to them, but it needs to be emphasized to these spoiled brats that Christians are no more special than any other religion or lack thereof.
What is wrong with us? Why can’t we be realistic and practical like the Canadians? They do all right, and I’ll bet their religious fanatics do just fine without state interference.
“By not bringing up my god, you are oppressing atheists and minority religions.”
That doesn’t make any sense but that is what these people who are complaining are saying. But that’s not what they mean. They mean that they should be deferred to at all times.
Outside of the time I spend here at Friendly Atheist, I go entire days, weeks, months without having to refer to my religious outlook, I really don’t understand these folks who have to insert Jesus into every sentence, every thought they are exposed to by others or themselves. I am almost certain that they don’t really eat, sleep, and breathe the gospel in their own lives, it is only when they can be seen doing it and pressuring others into it.
Not having prayers at mandatory events is not infringing on atheists’ rights, not having to hear about Jesus or God with a capital g at events the servicemembers are expected to be is not infringing on Muslims’, Jewish people’s, or other minority religions’ rights. All it is doing is removing a Christian privilege that has gone on far too long. It should also shorten the events, reducing the number of the military passing out in formation, getting heat exhaustion or other incidents. Anyone who has been in the military understands. The leadership are all big ole blowhards who love the sound of their own voices and all the enlisted are expected to stand at attention for hours to hear them out. One less passionate yet rambling speech, or at least a shorter one, is a gift to the event.
"We ask that our words and actions would be guided by wisdom and love. That we would allow compassion and patience into our day to day lives. That we would see that each life and each person we meet is special, unique, and worthy of basic human dignity and rights. That our conduct would bring honor to our military, our country, and our families. That each of us will look out for each other and protect each other and do everything we can to succeed and bring everyone home safely. May it be ever so."
There we go. Non-sectarian, appropriate prayer typed out in two minutes. Stop whining and just consider that not everyone is going to appreciate a "Oh Father, we thank you, Father, for just being with us, Father. Father, we thank you, Father, for the gift, Father, of life, Father...."
The idea government can impose a particular brand of Christianity, or any other religion, on the military is about as stupidly dangerous as thinking gets. Pickled Pete Hegseth was a drunken Faux Noise weekend news actor whose own military career peaked out at Major. For those unfamiliar with the American Military, there are ten officer grades, and a Major is an O-4. Six grades below a four-star. In Vietnam proselytizing chaplains would have been dealt with from the bottom up, and they rarely over-stepped their boundaries.
Actually, I'd be happy enough with Christianity (if it HAD to be), at least the New Testament version, with all the love from Jesus. (I LUV that Sermon On the Mount shit!)
But what Trump and Kegbreath want is "Trump IS Gawd", and that's not so good...
HALF the world wants to be in America (at least without Trump), and what we end up with is Millions of MAGA, NOT ONE of which are as deserving as those no longer allowed to immigrate here.
"Pete Hegseth is dragging our military in the opposite direction, treating it like a taxpayer-funded mission field for his version of batshit crazy, Doug Wilson-inspired Christianity."
OT: My bride and I are going on a cruise in a week or two through the Alaskan Inner Passage (fortuitous that our travel plans are a cruise given her broken foot and attendant knee scooter) and we end up in Vancouver where we will spend a couple of days. I’m going to wear my “Dear Canada We Hate Him Too” t-shirt.
That's a good cruise. Enjoy!
I’ve been on one cruise before — Galveston to Yucatán and back — and was bored out of my mind while at sea. I expect the scenery in the Inner Passage to be much better. Both of these cruises were really family reunions. “Cousins cruise” and it’s a good way for us to get together. To the extent that the two of us cruise in the future I want the ships to be way smaller than these multi-thousand passenger ships.
The scenery is nice, but early on it's nothing special if you live or frequently get up to the northwest. After the ship gets north, the shore excursions are pretty much daily and there's at least one day where the ship sails up to where a glacier drops into the sea. That was cool.
Oh noes!! Xtians are being oppressed.
Even worse: they're being expected be treated equally with everyone else! Oh my goodness! 😱😱😱
That makes them happy.
𝐶𝐴𝐹 𝑚𝑒𝑚𝑏𝑒𝑟𝑠 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑒𝑑𝑜𝑚 𝑜𝑓 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑛. 𝑇ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑖𝑛𝑐𝑙𝑢𝑑𝑒𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑒𝑑𝑜𝑚 𝑡𝑜 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑛𝑜 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑓 𝑤ℎ𝑎𝑡𝑠𝑜𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟. 𝐼𝑛 𝑎𝑑𝑑𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛, 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐶𝐴𝐹 ℎ𝑎𝑠 𝑎 𝑑𝑢𝑡𝑦 𝑜𝑓 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑛𝑒𝑢𝑡𝑟𝑎𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑦. 𝐼𝑡 𝑐𝑎𝑛𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑓𝑎𝑣𝑜𝑢𝑟 𝑐𝑒𝑟𝑡𝑎𝑖𝑛 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑓𝑠 𝑡𝑜 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑒𝑥𝑐𝑙𝑢𝑠𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑜𝑓 𝑜𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑠.
Hey MAGA! THIS is what religious freedom looks like. This is what separation of church and state means. This is what secular actually is. Secular does not mean atheist. It does not meam anti-Christian or anti-religion.
I am getting real tired of all these far right crazies screaming persecution when they are just being told that they have to follow the same rules as everyone else.
Any MAGA would listen to that and immediately respond with heresy. I'm not certain they are capable of acknowledging that there's any other religion than Christianity, and if so anything else has got to be of the devil.
Then too, that's what happens when people are wearing god-glasses.
On prayer "bans":
Jesus himself banned praying in public. What do xtians not understand about their own savior telling them to go to their closet and pray IN SECRET? Why do they defy him on this? Why do they call him lord and then ignore his words?
"What do stains not understand about their own savior telling the to go to their closet and pray IN SECRET?"
That wasn't actually Jesus talking. Satan had actually managed to possess Jesus for a few minutes during his lifetime and during that very brief period of time, that's when the latter uttered those words./s
They think praying (preying?) gets them clicks from Gawd (but apparently only if other humans notice.)
Their Jesus said those clicks for performative Christianity won’t be forthcoming from his pops in Matthew 6:1
TL:DNR
(More than 3 words right? That would go against GawdTrump.)
The point of Jesus' statement was to not pray to get attention and praise from others. It was not a prohibition on all public prayer. Jesus himself prayed in public. He prayed in public before feeding the multitudes (Matthew 14:19), at the tomb of Lazarus (John 11:41-42) and on the cross as he was dying (Matthew 27:46). And in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector, both pray in public (Luke 18:10-14) but only the Tax Collector had his prayer answered by God. And, there are several examples of prayers in public by Christians such as Paul (Acts 20:36) before leaving Ephesus. Sometimes, it astounds me that some skeptics embrace the same extreme literalism as the worst of the fundamentalists when reading the Bible.
I will kinda agree with you here. I read that passage as similar to what I said above: if you're at a ceremony in honor of someone and you put them first in your thoughts and words, then you're probably speaking fine, whether what you say is secular or a prayer. In contrast, if you're putting yourself first and trying to virtue signal, then your words are probably not fine - again, regardless of whether they're a prayer or secular.
The sad thing about the virtue signalers is that they think they impress others by dragging things out and consequently boring the you know what out of the captive audience. In contrast, the so-called Lord's Prayer can be said in less than a minute.
Obviously, the actual prayers and the locations of those prayers (at least the private ones) will never be known publicly, so it seems a safe gambit either way.
In the end, of course, we're talking about an imaginary religious figure there's no evidence for and prayer (public and private) being worthless.
NOGODZ,
Even when I was a child going to the local Southern Baptist Church every Sunday, it seemed a major disconnect that we have to make requests of an "omniscient" being.
Since, through experience, I've embraced the "connectedness of all things". After all, there are (theoretically) only two states for existence to take: perfect order or total chaos.
Since we are certainly not existing in a state of total chaos, and most of this reality we inhabit will never be made clear to any human mind, to me "perfect order" is something I work to understand, knowing this human body / mind never really will.
(Sorry. Just an aside. No reply expected. This belief just helps me locate my calm center. And I do NOT pray...or prey.)
i'd be okay with expanding the 'funerals not public' exception. Been to a bunch of federal promotion and retirement ceremonies, I really have no problem with a speaker at those giving their own personal faith statement as long as it's something that is supportive of the person being honored. Look, if the family member speaking can do it, I don't see why someone else can't.
The problem with officials speaking religiously at such ceremonies is when they're being dickish by shoving their religion where it's not wanted. Using someone else's event for their own personal goals. But if you're coming together to honor someone, and they would be honored by some sincere religious sentiment on your part, then by all means feel free to give it. Put them first, you're probably good. Put you first, you're not doing it right.
Btw - greetings from Belgium to everyone, just had to stop for a hydration break. It’s definitely scorchio!
If a Christian member of the CAF was at a “public event” at which a non-Christian CAF chaplain was speaking, would the former appreciate the non-exclusive comments of the latter?
Hopefully.
The tribalism here really should be "we are both military, and you are representing the military in a positive manner", not "I am Christian, so anytime any chaplain speaks I will be offended if it's not Jesus Jesus Jesus."
The Christian member wouldn't care. He's just trying to keep his head down and get his job done. The Christian chaplain, however, might be a bit miffed that the non-Christian chaplain didn't stick to Christianity only. Christian Fucking Privilege is spreading north.
I may be full of beans here, but I suspect that the kind of Christian privilege we see in the United States won't be as well tolerated in Canada.
Any Canadian commenters here who would like to correct me are invited to do so.
We have our share of radical Xtians here in Canada. There are branches of large US evangelicals here too like Kenneth Copeland
If the United States can't be more egalitarian as it comes to the treatment of religion in the military, at least our neighbors to the north can be so bothered. No great surprise that even the Christians in Canada want to get bent out of shape because they're not getting preferential treatment.
I don't know how we get the message across to them, but it needs to be emphasized to these spoiled brats that Christians are no more special than any other religion or lack thereof.
What is wrong with us? Why can’t we be realistic and practical like the Canadians? They do all right, and I’ll bet their religious fanatics do just fine without state interference.
“By not bringing up my god, you are oppressing atheists and minority religions.”
That doesn’t make any sense but that is what these people who are complaining are saying. But that’s not what they mean. They mean that they should be deferred to at all times.
Outside of the time I spend here at Friendly Atheist, I go entire days, weeks, months without having to refer to my religious outlook, I really don’t understand these folks who have to insert Jesus into every sentence, every thought they are exposed to by others or themselves. I am almost certain that they don’t really eat, sleep, and breathe the gospel in their own lives, it is only when they can be seen doing it and pressuring others into it.
Not having prayers at mandatory events is not infringing on atheists’ rights, not having to hear about Jesus or God with a capital g at events the servicemembers are expected to be is not infringing on Muslims’, Jewish people’s, or other minority religions’ rights. All it is doing is removing a Christian privilege that has gone on far too long. It should also shorten the events, reducing the number of the military passing out in formation, getting heat exhaustion or other incidents. Anyone who has been in the military understands. The leadership are all big ole blowhards who love the sound of their own voices and all the enlisted are expected to stand at attention for hours to hear them out. One less passionate yet rambling speech, or at least a shorter one, is a gift to the event.
"We ask that our words and actions would be guided by wisdom and love. That we would allow compassion and patience into our day to day lives. That we would see that each life and each person we meet is special, unique, and worthy of basic human dignity and rights. That our conduct would bring honor to our military, our country, and our families. That each of us will look out for each other and protect each other and do everything we can to succeed and bring everyone home safely. May it be ever so."
There we go. Non-sectarian, appropriate prayer typed out in two minutes. Stop whining and just consider that not everyone is going to appreciate a "Oh Father, we thank you, Father, for just being with us, Father. Father, we thank you, Father, for the gift, Father, of life, Father...."
The idea government can impose a particular brand of Christianity, or any other religion, on the military is about as stupidly dangerous as thinking gets. Pickled Pete Hegseth was a drunken Faux Noise weekend news actor whose own military career peaked out at Major. For those unfamiliar with the American Military, there are ten officer grades, and a Major is an O-4. Six grades below a four-star. In Vietnam proselytizing chaplains would have been dealt with from the bottom up, and they rarely over-stepped their boundaries.
Actually, I'd be happy enough with Christianity (if it HAD to be), at least the New Testament version, with all the love from Jesus. (I LUV that Sermon On the Mount shit!)
But what Trump and Kegbreath want is "Trump IS Gawd", and that's not so good...
Actually, America as a Taoist nation makes me VERY happy.
Or Eckankar, but it's a hard path, with great reward.
"𝐼𝑡’𝑠 𝑎 𝑑𝑎𝑛𝑔𝑒𝑟𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑐𝑒𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑡𝑟𝑦, 𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑒𝑐𝑖𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑦 𝑤ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝑤𝑒 𝑐𝑙𝑎𝑖𝑚 𝑡𝑜 𝑓𝑖𝑔ℎ𝑡 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑒𝑑𝑜𝑚 𝑎𝑟𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑤𝑜𝑟𝑙𝑑."
I guarantee most people around the world are assuming we are fighting a holy war, not religious freedom.
How NOT to be pissed off!
HALF the world wants to be in America (at least without Trump), and what we end up with is Millions of MAGA, NOT ONE of which are as deserving as those no longer allowed to immigrate here.
Won't anybody think about the warfighting warfighters and their Nazi Crusader tattoos?
Exactly! I'm going to send a couple extra crates of testosterone.
"Pete Hegseth is dragging our military in the opposite direction, treating it like a taxpayer-funded mission field for his version of batshit crazy, Doug Wilson-inspired Christianity."
Doug Wilson. Of course:
https://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/02/418-douglas-wilson.html
There’s also a really interesting article in mother jones. Apologies but I can’t add any links at the moment.
Maybe someone could paste the link? Thankyou.