Biology is not bigotry, but bigotry has no qualms manipulating biology to make its case, as in Coyne’s article. Just as the eugenicists claim biology creates superior human races, transphobes claim biology supports their side, when it does no such thing. There’s more to it than man/woman or xx/xy, and we don’t even have all the answers of biology yet, but they’re all ready to claim it’s all that simple. Whether they claim it’s god that said it or just the first breakthrough in science that understood it, they’re done thinking about it and that’s that.
Why do we always need to define woman but never man? Why is it that only trans women are a threat to society and not trans men? It isn’t about transgender people in general, it’s about punishing men who betray the patriarchy and hating women. Of course women want to be men, so a trans man is not a threat to the status quo, they’re just tomboys who took it a little too far. But also, a trans man is still just a woman to them, and therefore too weak to be a physical threat, too dumb to be an intellectual threat, and too emotional to be an existential threat to men. But, a trans woman is wrong because they aren’t supposed to like women, especially not enough to be one, everyone should be a man or want to. But they’re too strong for the helpless women to defend against, or compete against, they’re too smart for women to work with, and, most importantly, the men might get aroused by a man in a dress and then those aroused men might be considered gay.
Why do we always need to define woman, but not man? I think it's at least in part because men are the default, and women are "other". In the same way that white people are the default, and everyone else is "other." In the same way that straight people are the default, and queer people are "other." In the same way that right-handed people are the default, and left-handed people are "other." The "others" need to be shamed, managed, explained, exploited, and so on. Is there a "gay gene"? What explains the seeming increase in the number of left-handed people today, by comparison to a century ago? Of course, one hundred years ago, left-handed people were considered to be "demonic", subjected to cruel conversion therapy, forcing them to write with their right hands, denied appropriate tools to do work, and lots more. I know because that happened to my dad, and he bore the scars on his body for the rest of his life.
It 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 circles back around to misogyny, doesn't it?
When the haters do bring up trans men, it's almost always to portray them as victims- innocent little girls seduced by some sinister plot to rip out their reproductive organs (for... reasons). Because, y'know, 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵'𝘴 the only 𝘪𝘮𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘵 thing about them.
I often see men obsessing quite hysterically, online like in comment sections, about "little girls getting their breasts chopped off!" as if it is a common occurrence. It's quite creepy.
OK, I hate to butt in here, as the haters are having a field day, but here's my experience with breast-reduction and breast-augmentation surgery. If we are talking about the underage crowd, that's usually straight cis girls. I don't know how common this is now, but I do know that, among my cohort (late-1960s to early 1980s), upper-middle class girls in southern California were often given a choice of 16th birthday presents: a car, or a "boob-job". How do I know? I went to college with these girls. I remember a couple who got "nose-jobs" as an alternative, so that surgery wasn't exactly uncommon either. These surgeries were expensive (translation: paid for by parents), voluntary (with parental permission/oversight), routine, and exclusively for cosmetic purposes. I remember that girls bragged about them, about how bigger boobs or smaller boobs would make them more attractive. This was at a public university campus. I guess I'd heard vaguely about such surgeries before I went to college, but so many of the girls I met there had had them as 16th birthday presents that it made my head spin. All--I repeat, all--the girls I met who had had or contemplated such surgeries were straight, cis, white girls. Not lesbians. Not trans girls. (And, yes, I knew a few of each of those.) Straight cis girls. For cosmetic purposes. I repeat that I don't know about the situation now, but the age of majority was 21 then, and these girls were getting the surgeries at 16. I agree that it's creepy to hear straight cis dudes obsessing about "little girls getting their breasts chopped off". Because it doesn't happen.
A common occurrence? Why does it have to happen a lot a girls before it's a problem? One child getting a mastectomy is one too many. Most of these kids are gender nonconforming or young lesbians. Others hate the idea of being adult women because they've been sexualized way too young.
Cutting your breasts off has to be one of the most self hating things a woman can do. Women are so hurt about their bodies, judged and self-judging to the point of hating themselves for not measuring up to the perfection of photoshopped and siliconed pop culture beauties.
It's not just men who are appalled that kids too young to get a tattoo are allowed to do this. Many women also fight against this travesty of self hatred that has befallen our children.
Lead author Dannie Dai, research data analyst in the https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/health-policy-and-management/, added, “Our findings suggest that legislation blocking gender-affirming care among TGD youth is not about protecting children, but is rooted in bias and stigma against TGD identities and seeks to address a perceived problem that does not actually exist.”
Your comment is presumptuous and lacks rigor, it is filled with your own biases and assumptions, and is riddled with logical fallacies. You suggest that Coyne manipulates biology with bigotry, liken his views to eugenicists, and imply he is a transphobe—hyperbolic claims made without evidence. Despite lacking Coyne's expertise in biology and genetics, you attempt to justify your pronouncements with a mishmash of incorrect pop biology. Remarkably, based on this unscientific confusion, you believe you're correcting a distinguished evolutionary geneticist on scientific issues. While this is a deluded and insupportable position, I must commend your confidence.
Your contempt for the binary nature of sex and those who accept it as scientific truth is evident. Yet, you presume to know precisely why such people hold their views and how they justify them—an impressive yet impossible assumption. How do you claim such insight into the beliefs of so many? Clearly, you haven't asked them. Instead, you project your biases onto them as a group—job done.
This approach offers a convenient benefit: by deciding what these people are like, your suspicions are confirmed. Their views and "terrible" ideas can be dismissed as abhorrent and unworthy of your attention. Furthermore, people who hold such views are reprehensible and should not be engaged with. Another uncomfortable truth and another bigot swept aside. How very convenient.
This is neatly underlined by your meandering paragraph where you move from pop biology to equally derisory invocations of pop psychology. It's a completely speculative and presumptive attempt to analyze the psychology of people you see as anti-trans bigots and it fails glaringly. We're either terrified of trans people because they might be a threat, or won't stay in their rightful place, or we might fancy them and feel gay. Give me a break; this is lazy, juvenile, and wildly incorrect. It's also tiresome and pathetic. I should also note that you use the word 'them' in your castigation of people who accept established science. This achieves two things: it lets you set 'them' (the bad people) apart from you (the good people), and also identifies 'them' as a homogenous group of nasty people with nasty views, which is obviously fallacious.
In summary, your entire comment aligns with Christopher Hitchens's aphorism: "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
“Your contempt for the binary nature of sex and those who accept it as scientific truth is evident.”
My reality does not match your truth of the binary nature of sex. I don’t care that Coyne is a distinguished evolutionary geneticist, his conclusions do not comport with my experience. So, to me and plenty of other people, including biologists and doctors, his and your, opinions are the ones that are based on agenda.
The reality regarding good vs. bad is that people against trans people having human rights have done cruel and hurtful things, attacked not just transgender people, but cis women too. Their actions make them bad, not faulty science or bad ideas, their actions. So, your fallacy of appeal to authority aside, I am going to continue to protect the vulnerable innocent transgender and nonbinary people. As well as the innocent women and girls in the crossfire.
Firstly, recognizing the qualifications of a scientist who has spent a lifetime demonstrating expertise in their field is not a fallacious appeal to authority. Expertise matters, particularly when it is earned through decades of rigorous work.
Secondly, we are talking about biological sex here, NOT gender. Biological sex does not preclude—ever nor in any way—a person from assuming the gender identity that they wish to assume. So how, therefore, can a rigorous scientific understanding of biological sex interfere with the human rights of a trans individual? The only possible justification for claiming this is the case would be the introduction of arbitrary laws restricting what gender a person of a particular biological sex can identify as. But this is patently not the case and has never been suggested in any Western country. Therefore, a strict definition of biological sex can never restrict how a trans person chooses to identify. Do you wish to restrict available set of sex-gender combinations and transitions a person is allowed assume or perform? I emphatically do not.
I can empathize with your argument to a degree. My own “lived experience” tells me the Earth is flat—a truth reinforced by my decades of walking on what seems to be a two-dimensional plane. Where is this curve they speak of? The arrogance of these so-called “scientists” insisting the Earth is a sphere is laughable. If only they would limit their perspectives to align with mine, they might finally see the truth!
Of all your assertions, the most egregious and deeply incorrect is your claim that I oppose trans people having human rights. This is utter nonsense. I passionately support the rights of trans people—and indeed all people—and will continue to do so to my dying day. I do not doubt that you care deeply about the individuals you believe you are protecting by adhering to your anti-scientific views. Your compassion and desire to make the world a better place for everyone deserve recognition, even if I believe you misunderstand or refuse to engage with the science behind these issues.
However, your refusal to consider that I might also be acting out of care and good intentions is both unfair and misguided. You make this assumption explicit in your final paragraph:
“The reality regarding good vs. bad is that people against trans people having human rights have done cruel and hurtful things, attacked not just transgender people but cis women too. Their actions make them bad, not faulty science or bad ideas—their actions. So, your fallacy of appeal to authority aside, I am going to continue to protect the vulnerable, innocent transgender and nonbinary people, as well as the innocent women and girls in the crossfire.”
Here, you frame this as a battle between “good” and “bad,” with me cast as “bad.” You imply that I oppose trans people’s human rights, condone attacks on trans people and women, and that my acceptance of scientific evidence somehow precludes me from protecting the vulnerable. This characterization is not only untrue but also patronizing and dismissive.
You must recognize that holding a different perspective on scientific or ethical issues does not grant you a monopoly on compassion or morality, nor does it make me—or anyone who disagrees with you—bigoted, cruel, or unsympathetic. As a father of two daughters, I care deeply about women’s rights and will defend them passionately, just as I care about the rights of all people.
Perhaps a little introspection is in order. A differing opinion does not make someone a bad person, nor does it imply moral inferiority. Accepting this might allow for a more meaningful and constructive conversation.
“I am going to continue to protect the vulnerable innocent transgender and nonbinary people.”
Lol, you've really drunk the cool-aid. Go save all those “vulnerable innocent transgender” male convicted rapists who've demanded to be put in female prisons. Guess what there doing there after declaring themselves to be women – Yep, they're raping more women.
I'm gonna say that the women and children these poor “vulnerable innocent transgender and nonbinary people” have raped are more oppressed than the rapists.
And let's not forget the middle aged heterosexual males who call themselves women. Since they want to screw women, they now call themselves lesbians and go on lesbian dating apps where they harass actual lesbians, calling them bigots and getting them kicked out for not want to have sex with them and their female penises. Poor oppressed “vulnerable innocent transgender and nonbinary people.”
Then there are all the AGP and other perverts who call themselves women. They demand and get access to women in female showers at your local YMCA. Poor “vulnerable innocent transgender and nonbinary people” need to oppress actual women in order to feel good about themselves.
Are you ignoring the reality that people can change their sex? As in primary and secondary sex characteristics, mainly their appearance and many biological functions. Sex hormones do a bulk of the work in a sex change, it even alters immune responses. No one seems to acknowledge this, that your biology is subject to change.
Maxwell, you are confusing sex with sex traits. This is a category mistake. Sex is what you get a conception, regardless of your genetic expression. Sex traits or characteristics are what happens as a result of genetic expression with secondary sex characteristics developing during puberty. Some males don't fully develop a penis and scrotum, like the Algerian boxer who won gold last summer when he beat the crap out of a woman. Having a DSD doesn't magically make a male into the opposite sex. Cutting off your penis doesn't turn you into a woman. It makes you a man without a penis. Women are not dickless men. When a girl or woman gets a mastectomy, she doesn't become a man. Taking testosterone to make her face and body hairy doesn't turn her into a man. The best she can do is mimic men. She'll never be one.
I think it's harder for men to understand the difference between sex vs sex traits. That's because they are taught to think of women in terms of their secondary sex characteristics. When men see boobs on a “trans woman” they think of that person as female. But if you want to know if a male transgender is actually a woman, a lesbian can easily tell the difference. We're not attracted to men with fake boobs.
The science is pretty clear, gender is not binary, it's on as spectrum, as is sexuality, as it turns out. Sex, gender, humanity, are all complicated. So here's a thought, Mind Your Own F cking Business. What someone else does or who they are has Zero bearing on you. Unless they are telling you how you should be, or live; STFU and let them be who they are. It is NONE OF YOUR F CKING BUSINESS. If you don't like people different from you in your space, work, neighborhood, wherever, too bad, Mind Your Own F cking Business. I'm sure everyone in your life has things the dislike or even hate about you and you don't know this because they Mind Their Own F cking Business. So to reiterate, Live and Let Live and MIND YOUR OWN F CKING BUSINESS.
Their jesus demands they be meddlesome assholes. I was taught that every time someone sinned I was blamed by god for not stopping their sinning. And they call this monster of nterference "just" and "loving." I am reminded of a saying on fb. If kkkriststains in Rome were like today's people it is easy to see why they were fed to lions."
Another asshole who got his comment removed. I'm sure you know that this about Imane Khelif not because you've done genetic tests on her, not because you were present at her birth, not because you were present during her life at all, but because you were told this by some right wing idiot who doesn't know anymore than you do, but has managed to convince you that something you couldn't possibly know must be true because that's what you prefer to think.
First, trans people, like everyone else, need a place to pee and a place to change. There is not the slightest bit of evidence that they present any general danger to anyone. Yes, there are a few examples of people who claim to be transgender and who have penises harassing women. But normal people would refer to them as heterosexual men. The Vast majority present no problem whatsoever.
People with gender dysphoria comprise about 1/2 of one percent of humanity. Actual transgender people represent a tiny minority of that 1/2 of 1 percent. Transgender people who are interested in sports represent and even tinier minority of that tiny minority of 1/2 of one percent. And the people most qualified to deal with it, sports organizations, don't seem to have a problem with it.
Do you know who has a problem with it? Culture warriors. MAGAts. Religious dominionists.
If trans people had any advantage in sports, they would be winning all of the time. But yet, we don't hear about that. Moreover,If the only concern you show about women's sports is when transgender people are participating, then maybe your concern really isn't about women's sports.
Women’s rights are not sex based, they are human based. The same as trans rights, gay rights, Jewish rights, black rights.
I live in one of the most transgender friendly areas of the country, if not the world. If the concerns of anti-trans people were actually reality based, we would find constant news reports of transgender men creating problems for women. But we don’t. There are no more reality based than the people who are concerned about Jewish people or Black people or gay people moving into their neighborhoods.
One of my best friends is a woman who goes to a gym every single day. She has told me that she and other women are well aware there are some transgender women in their locker room. Those transgender women do not harass anyone, do not make a spectacle of themselves, do nothing to bother anyone except go in and change. Like all the rest of the women, when they need to pee, they go into a stall and close the door.
Prior to the pandemic, when I went to the gym three or four times a week, I was well aware that there were transgender men in the locker room. They also bothered no one. They made no spectacle of themselves. They simply needed a place to change or a place to pee.
None of this was an issue at all until about 10 years ago, when the religious right, having lost the battle against gay people and our full Participation in society, Needed a new target, A new source of outrage and fundraising, More innocent people to attack in their never ending quest for power, money, and religious dominion. Transgender people have been using locker rooms and restrooms forever without and significant incident. I suspect that you have been using locker rooms and restrooms for years alongside transgender people without ever knowing it, because they’re not making an issue of it. They simply need a place to pee or change their clothes.
That’s it.
If you’re worried about predators, then make sure the laws against predators are strong and enforced. But thinking of every trans person as a predator simply sets up enemies.
They are winning all the time. Just one recent example: Flying Bats FC, based in Sydney, Australia. Five transgender women and has achieved significant success in competitions:
• Beryl Ackroyd Cup (March 2024): Flying Bats FC won all their matches, including a 10-0 victory where one transgender player scored six goals. They claimed the final 4-0 and received a $1,000 prize.
• North West Sydney Women’s Premier League (August 2024): The team finished the season undefeated, scoring 65 goals and conceding only four. They won the championship final 5-4 against West Pennant Hills Cherrybrook FC.
"First, trans people, like everyone else, need a place to pee and a place to change. There is not the slightest bit of evidence that they present any general danger to anyone."
No evidence? Male convicted rapists who are transgender (all it takes is him saying it's so!) have been placed in female prisons where they are, surprise! raping more women. These new rape cases can be found in court listings in states stupid enough to believe men can magically change their sex.
Maybe you should do your homework before embarrassing yourself.
20 million Democrats just refused to vote for the Democrats in 2024. They're not MAGA or culture warriors or religious dominionists. They're rank and file Democrats who are fed up with being gaslit by people like you who pretend it's no big deal to accept men in women's spaces.
Take them back into your male spaces Ben. We're done with them. You're such a great supporter, you shower with them.
And again, the problem seems to be heterosexual men, people with penises. Heterosexual men rape other men in prison as well. Putting an identified transgender person with violent male prisoners in a highly segregated environment is putting them at risk as well. So what are you going to do?
The answer is actually pretty simple: it’s not so difficult to determine who is actually transgender and who is pretending to be transgender. It’s not so difficult to have rules in prison where if you have any kind of a sexual assault, you are segregated. All of this can be worked out.
As for the people that refuse to vote, I doubt it was the transgender issue, but it was a related one: They couldn’t see a woman As president.
I'm sure you know that this about Imane Khelif not because you've done genetic tests on her, not because you were present at her birth, not because you were present during her life at all, but because you were told this by some right wing idiot who doesn't know anymore than you do, but has managed to convince you that something you couldn't possibly know must be true because that's what you prefer to think.
You give it all away with your failure to site any sources, any names, any actual information (which 2016 800 m race) any anything. You are of course referring to Caster Semenya--One person, not three. Semenya Has internal testicles. So what is a man? So what is a woman? Oh, you're not interested in the answer to that question now.
Now show me exactly how much you are concerned about women's sports, or would be if your imagination about transgender males dominating the sports was not your only concern.
This is the same nonsense that says that drag queen's reading stories to children is grooming those children. This is the same nonsense that says that transgender women are hanging around women's restroom so that they can harass and rape women and little girls. This is the same nonsense that says the gay men are a threat to children because men who are identified as heterosexual By their communities and by themselves molest little boys.
How about sports? How about La Leche League, for nursing mothers. Women bring their babies to the meetings and nurse them. There should not be men present in this situation.
"This includes all kinds of women - married, single, other, young, old, lesbian, nonbinary and transmen. The dynamic would not be the same with men present."
Did you not catch her bigotry? I will award you a No-Prize if you can explain it.
Nope I’ve never been an athlete. It’s not fair to allow men in women’s sports. Why were women’s sports made separate in the first place? Men are bigger and stronger.
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
As a cis woman I would rather share a bathroom with a transwoman, than a christian bigot who wants genital inspections done, any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.
I have used unisex bathrooms in Europe and they work fine. Who the hell is so stupid they think people lurk in public restrooms, anyway?
I applaud your most excellent suggestion. Too bad so many weirdos who obsess about others, can't seem to withdraw their nose from any of our private parts.
I am a transgender woman. I began my transition in 1999 when I could no longer overcome my dysphoria. These people who are against transgender people don't have the first clue what we go through. Hours upon hours of counselors, psychologists and doctors. Spending thousand of dollars changing your wardrobe, and learning about makeup. Researching surgeons and their techniques and outcomes. It's not a game. Nobody is doing this for fun. I wouldn't wish this abuse on my worst enemy. You walk around wondering if someone will clock you and take umbrage to your existence and beat you or even kill you. To see people that I admired, these atheist thinkers and leaders, deny my reality, and the reality of most of us, and the actual science, is just another twist of the knife. I cried when Dawkins went out and started denying us. We just want to live our lives the way that makes us feel the most right in our own bodies. Give us a break and leave us alone!
Strange that 25 years ago when I started using the women's rest room, nobody was talking about this. For over 15 years we never heard of this. Then, slowly, it started to surface. Now the christian right has jumped on it since they got their wish on abortion, they need a new boogeyman to rally against. Religion enables this kind of insanity. Don't like transgender people? Ignore them like you do school shootings.
Isn't it odd that 97% of every post on the subject is about trans-women, and not trans-men, despite trans-men being statistically much more prevalent. Yet they are seldom posting bout how unfairly they are treated. Why would that be?
Sadly erligion is far worse than Dawkins and coyne. Their god of ignorance and superstition has proclaimed from on high on high what hatred we are to push on anyone daring to be different.
Humans are a wondrously diverse lot. Gods were invented to quash that diversity and make everyone march to the drumbeat of some dictator-wannabe's faerie in the sky.
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
Nature magazine April 9 2020, "Transgender individuals (TIs) show brain-structural alterations that differ from their biological sex as well as their perceived gender." Google it. There are many scientific papers where scientists have found measurable differences between Trans- individuals and Cis-individuals. There's a great deal of science behind it. Unlike religion.
Some day we will figure it out. What we know now is not the end all and be all of biology or psychology, or any other science for that matter. Just because we don't have an answer yet doesn't mean there isn't an answer waiting to be discovered.
You are discussing the methods you use to appear more like a woman. Methods and accesories one can buy.
If that makes you feel better, that is great. But it doesn't change the fact that sex and mammals cannot be changed. And women shouldn't be called bigots for noticing this
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
Also, you continue to misspell "Schmuck". You're welcome. 😉
I don't have much time now, but I will say this much. The very people who say that "biology is not bigotry" are the very same people who made exactly the same claim when it came to gay people in general, gay marriage and gay rights in particular.
And what is also exactly the same is that exactly the same people are telling exactly the same kinds of lies for exactly the same reasons to cause exactly the same kinds of harm to people they don't know, know nothing about, whose lives don't intersect with theirs in the least, and who have done them and intend them no harm.
It is absolutely true that biology is not bigotry. It is also absolutely true that bigots use their particular version of biology To justify their desire to be bigots.
If it will make you happy, I was generalizing. As with everything else, I’m sure you can find an example of someone who can falsify something or other. But listening to the right wing attacks, the religious attacks, the conservative Republican attacks, on gay people and trans people…
Overall, in general, with very few exceptions…
THE VERY SAME PEOPLE ARE ATTACKING TRANS PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN ATTACKING GAY PEOPLE FOR THE ENTIRETY OF MY ADULT LIFE.
No, as a gay man, I am quite well aware of how the religious right works.
The vast majority of sexual assaults and harassment of women is perpetrated by heterosexual men. Theculture warrior prefer to pretend it transgender men in locker rooms.
There are some few examples of trans athletes succeeding. That does not amount to oppression of all women by all trans women.
At the end of the day, true believers of all stripes want to be able to decide what is, or is not, true based on what ever magic book they're reading from. Objective evidence need not apply. I would add one more example of how religion has hurt people, and that would be the fight for women's suffrage.
"In the early days of woman suffrage agitation I saw that the greatest obstacle we had to overcome was the Bible. It was hurled at us on every side." -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton, 1897.
Thanks for including the thoughtful video by Drew from Genetically Modified Skeptic. He's facing the same dilemma that my paternal grandfather faced 90-ish years ago, when a candidate for governor in his state of Utah made a lucrative offer: "Endorse me and I'll make you my secretary of state." Grandpa (labor organizer, activist) shot back, "I wouldn't endorse you if you were the last man in Utah." Then he went all around the state and told everybody what the guy had done. Upshot: the guy lost the election and, ever after, attributed his loss to "that damned Bill Leonard." I heard that story many times as a child in the 50s and 60s, but it wasn't til I got to college that I realized grandpa was describing an attempted bribe, one that would have put him, his children, his grandchildren, and even his great-grandchildren in positions of power, wealth and influence. Grandpa wasn't a stupid man; I'm sure he knew what his refusal to be bribed meant. He said to us grandkids, "The first time they try to buy you, you find out how much you're worth to them. After that, your price goes down." Of course, grandpa wasn't talking about human rights as we think of them today, but I think the same principle holds: sell out once, for pride, position, power, and you'll sell out again. And again. And again.
Sometimes he was. He was human, though, and had the usual human problems, including drinking too much. He did tell some wonderful stories, especially when he'd had a few beers. I still remember his stories about organizing Mexican railroad workers, during the time that Pancho Villa was operating in northern Mexico. Quite a character. He died in '72, and I still miss him terribly.
Somewhat off the subject matter but also appreciate people like your grandfather who despite his own circumstances and struggles, pushed back on a ambitious, greedy self-server. Imagine
what the US would be like if there were more unsung hero's of the Labor movement like that? 🤔
- Award living wages.
- Health & safety in the
workplace.
- National health care.
- Pensions in line with inflation
- Free child care & support
- Superannuation
- Gender equality & diversity
- Ethnic equality & diversity
- Free - subsidised education
- Public ownership of common
property, assets & resources.
And to think 🤔 that when workers unionise its 'demonic'
socialism. But when businesses and industry do so - in the form of federations, guilds, societies, councils, associations, alliances, industry lobbyist - it's sound entreneurship.
Definitely. Reading and learning about those working people--and, though we may not know their names or deeds any more--there are more of them than we tend to think. I have a book called "From the folks who brought you the weekend", which makes the point that many of the work benefits we enjoy were hard won by those now-forgotten people. Bottom line, when contrasting working people with capitalists: we are many, they are few. And we don't have to go it alone.
Coyne my Trans friends and my Queer friends and myself all strongly disagree with you. Coyne go fuck yourself and your opinions-- never publish anything again you dim witted ahole. 🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
BTW, you continue to misspell "Schmuck". You're welcome. 😉
Why do you come to the conclusion that a liberal atheist woman who thinks that women are fully human and deserving the right of some male-free spaces, is transphobic? Trans women aren't always welcome in women's spaces, not because they are trans, but because they are male.
It's not very difficult to understand. Yet you don't understand it
"liberal atheist woman" - none of which are proven fact.
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
BTW, you continue to misspell "Schmuck". You're welcome. Now go fuck yourself. 😉
Trans persons are fully deserving of human rights and are such a tiny minority in society that it is easy to beat them up (metaphorically!) with little consequence. Dawkins is a jerk, using his prominence to bully a group that is almost defenseless.
I would much rather bully donOLD trump - the doddering pseudo-fascist with no love in his heart for anyone but himself and who is surrounded by anti-trans sexual deviants who exploit minors for sex or release themselves by sexually assaulting the sofa.
White women did not have a right to deny black women access to "white" public facilities despite white women claiming they needed those spaces for "security, privacy and dignity".
So no, cis women do not have a right to exclude trans women (or any cis woman that they FEEL is a trans woman) from public facilities just because they are uncomfortable with the idea of anything even remotely related to males.
If you're OK with a cis woman wearing ago Nazi flag and shouting Nazi talking points going into the women's bathroom despite her being a literal threat to many other women, then you can get over your irrational phobia to trans women.
If everyone is calling you a racist maybe you should stop and think for a second if things you are saying have been historically used to attack black people and consider no longer spreading racist talking points
It IS an irrational phobia - trans women are extremely vulnerable, a tiny minority, while white CIS women are the 2nd most-privileged group after white CIS males.
How does one tell apart a trans woman and a man saying that he's a trans woman? Are women not allowed to have spaces free of males regardless of their internal gender feelings? The idea that trans women who have male bodies are more vulnerable than women is ridiculous and not based in any crime statistics.
Trans identity carries no magically transformative properties that makes a male person not male. Calling yourself transgender doesn’t alter material reality of sex. In any physical match up with males, even the TransId ones, the female is vulnerable. TransID males have a higher rate of sxx offenses than other males. The gaslighting from your lot is abuse.
You're a white guy who is obsessed with the idea of "men who enjoy dressing up as women". You don't get to decide for black women what is or is not racism.
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
Again, you continue to misspell "Schmuck". You're welcome. 😉
TransW are men. You deal with other men and leave women alone. We don’t owe you anything and feel exactly the same way about you (with your higher than normal rate of sexual violence) that we feel about other men. Back off!! Leave women alone!!
A "tiny minority"? The entire Democratic Party was willing to lose the presidential election to #45 rather than have anyone say that "a woman is an adult human female." After the economy, open borders, 'gender over sex' lost them 17% in the polls.
Somehow spending almost four years wholeheartedly supporting trans rights in every conceivable way, then with a few months left to go, completely ignoring and even hiding the fact that they did so, did not go unnoticed by the voters.
The trans issues simply weren't big on voter's minds when polled. It was the economy. Lots of Dems withheld or switched their votes because of the Dems ongoing support of war in Palestine. The Republicans may have made trans issues their biggest issue but that wasn't why they one.
I rather suspect it has more than a little to do with our very existence being proof that they're wrong about something- with the religious bigots, it's the infallibility of their god; with the "scientific" bigots, it's that their knowledge of the human condition is far more incomplete than they'd like to admit.
It often has to do with what they feedl deep inside. Just as homophobes are forcing down their own desires, there is a lot of this within themselves. Given the little I have read of gestation and various hormone jolts of a specific value and timing I think these traits run rampant in the human species. Given the baggage society has loaded into gender and sex, no wonder so many see it as a danger to themselves and their identity. Gay is found in most mammals. Homophobia is found in only one species.
I've thought a lot about this and I think it boils down to "How dare you be happy/genuine and live a meaningful life while I have to repress myself because society/religion says I won't be saved/respected/fit in if I don't?"
I'm sure there's a much more succinct way to put this.
I've been thinking this for a long time, Mr. B! I think they are angry when they see people with the intestinal fortitude to go through what we go through and feel that we might have stronger character than them, and it makes them crazy.
I hear you. Makes zero sense to me, but then there are people out there for whom standards and norms are EVERYTHING, and the second those are violated, they lose their shit.
I don't pretend to know why. Just sayin' what I see.
I think that conservatives want to live in a simple world with simple categories. You are either a man or a woman, black or white. When you get a man or woman who doesn't fit into one of their nice neat categories its jarring to them. They couldn't get it in their heads that Kamala Harris identified as both Black and Indian. To conservatives men are men and they must act like "This." Women are women and they must act like "That." When I was a kid conservatives got all upset when young men started wearing their hair long, then they went to pray to Jesus who in western culture is typically pictured with long hair.
Existence isn't the issue. It's demanding society change to allow males into women's private spaces. It is because it is demanding children with developing brains to make permanent medical decisions that will affect them the rest of their life, even if they desist later on
Do you look over or under stall walls to make sure the person in the next stall meets your expectations? People who are that concerned are frightening.
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
BTW, you continue to misspell "Schmuck". You're welcome. 😉
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
Are you familiar with Buck Angel? That’s his stage name. You can look up images easily enough and you should before reading the rest of this comment.
Buck was born female. Here’s why you don’t want to have society demand that Buck use the women’s restroom: because then anyone who looks anything remotely like Buck Angel can walk into a women’s restroom pretending to be female.
Who has been cheating? Cheating implies someone is just pretending to be a woman solely to win at a sport. Can you give me a specific instance of that happening?
I read this on Joe.My.God, and it's new to me even though I taught middle-school sex ed for 30 years.
Secular Party of America
·
The more you know...
Rebecca Helm, a biologist and an assistant professor at the University of North Carolina, Asheville US writes:
Friendly neighborhood biologist here. I see a lot of people are talking about biological sexes and gender right now. Lots of folks make biological sex sex seem really simple. Well, since it’s so simple, let’s find the biological roots, shall we? Let’s talk about sex...[a thread]
If you know a bit about biology you will probably say that biological sex is caused by chromosomes, XX and you’re female, XY and you’re male. This is “chromosomal sex” but is it “biological sex”? Well...
Turns out there is only ONE GENE on the Y chromosome that really matters to sex. It’s called the SRY gene. During human embryonic development, the SRY protein turns on male-associated genes. Having an SRY gene makes you “genetically male”. But is this “biological sex”?
Sometimes that SRY gene pops off the Y chromosome and over to an X chromosome. Surprise! So now you’ve got an X with an SRY and a Y without an SRY. What does this mean?
A Y with no SRY means physically you’re female, chromosomally you’re male (XY) and genetically you’re female (no SRY). An X with an SRY means you’re physically male, chromosomally female (XX) and genetically male (SRY). But biological sex is simple! There must be another answer...
Sex-related genes ultimately turn on hormones in specifics areas on the body, and reception of those hormones by cells throughout the body. Is this the root of “biological sex”??
“Hormonal male” means you produce ‘normal’ levels of male-associated hormones. Except, some percentage of females will have higher levels of ‘male’ hormones than some percentage of males. Ditto ditto ‘female’ hormones. And...
...if you’re developing, your body may not produce enough hormones for your genetic sex. Leading you to be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally non-binary, and physically non-binary. Well, except cells have something to say about this...
Maybe cells are the answer to “biological sex”?? Right?? Cells have receptors that “hear” the signal from sex hormones. But sometimes those receptors don’t work. Like a mobile phone that’s on “do not disturb’. Call and cell, they will not answer.
What does this all mean?
It means you may be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally male/female/non-binary, with cells that may or may not hear the male/female/non-binary call, and all this leading to a body that can be male/non-binary/female.
Try out some combinations for yourself. Notice how confusing it gets? Can you point to what the absolute cause of biological sex is? Is it fair to judge people by it?
Of course you could try appealing to the numbers. “Most people are either male or female” you say. Except that as a biologist professor I will tell you...
The reason I don’t have my students look at their own chromosome in class is because people could learn that their chromosomal sex doesn’t match their physical sex, and learning that in the middle of a 10-point assignment is JUST NOT THE TIME.
Biological sex is complicated. Before you discriminate against someone on the basis of “biological sex” & identity, ask yourself: have you seen YOUR chromosomes? Do you know the genes of the people you love? The hormones of the people you work with? The state of their cells?
Since the answer will obviously be no, please be kind, respect people’s right to tell you who they are, and remember that you don’t have all the answers. Again: biology is complicated. Kindness and respect don’t have to be.
Note: Biological classifications exist. XX, XY, XXY XXYY and all manner of variation which is why sex isn't classified as binary. You can't have a binary classification system with more than two configurations even if two of those configurations are more common than others.
Unfortunately when trans “women” wish to compete in women’s sports, something has to give. Biological males have a huge advantage in sports. It’s unfair to biological women to permit them to compete.
There are millions of documented cases of trans women losing to cis women. In fact, no trans women athletes have dominated any sport. Occasionally a trans woman might win first or second place, but most of the time, those same trans women only make 8th place, tie for 5th place, or don't even rank at all.
Your ideology that any win by a trans woman takes away a win by a cis woman is illogical. Not only are there a few dozen trans athletes competing against literally MILLIONS of cis women athletes globally, but it is the exact same argument used by racists back in the day when they wanted to keep black women out of women's sports.
I have such mixed feelings about this, and personal anecdotes to back them up.
My 30-year-old daughter has played competitive volleyball her entire life. After college, there isn't much high-level competition unless you join a league with like-minded (and skilled) women. However, there is an organization called the North American Gay Volleyball Association, which hosts tournaments around the country for adult men and women. They are VERY competitive. My daughter and six highly skilled women regularly play in these tournaments, usually in NorCal and Vegas. I've been to several.
Most of the teams have no transgender women on them, but there are a few that do, and those players are AMAZING. The all cis-gender women's teams pretty much know they won't win, but it's very fun to play the "mixed" teams. The trans women hit the ball so much harder, jump so much higher, and are so much quicker than the cis-women it's really not fair, especially on a women's-height net, but the all-cis teams know going into these tournaments that that's going to happen. And one time...one time...my daughter's team actually won the entire tournament! When she told me I said, "NO WAY! NO WAY!" I've seen them play! They're unbeatable! But my daughter said their opponents got in each other's way mentally and just fell apart. So beating them was a HUGE boost to their egos!
These NAGVA tournaments are great competition. The women who play in them know exactly what they're getting into. I absolutely don't have a problem with this. There are also boys who play on girls' club volleyball teams either because there weren't enough girls to make a team or the boys don't have a boys' team to play on. I don't have a problem with this, either, because these are prepubescent boys who aren't any stronger/faster than their female teammates (yet).
However...these are trans women who have already gone through puberty and have the musculature and testosterone that cis-men have...and that's not a fair fight. I've seen it.
I don't believe these aggressive trans volleyball players you talk about even exist, but even if they did, it is absolute insanity to believe that one exceptionally good player on a team of 6 would carry the whole team to victory.
Also, trans women who take HRT, even if they "have already gone through puberty", do not have any competitive advantage over cis women. I am an MtF trans woman, and I take estrogen, and my "musculature" (sic) is basically gone. I can't even open a pickle jar.
Trans women are not just bulky men in dresses, and your caricature of them as such is transphobic and quite disgusting. And that is the main reason I believe you are lying about the existence of the trans volleyball players who apparently are leagues better than the cis women players.
Also, you call them "mixed" teams. If they are teams filled with both male and female players, then how can you be upset when you compete against players you view as "male"? It's giving transphobia.
Check their schedule. The next tournament is in Vegas in January. There may be a tournament in your area. You should go watch! It's great competition.
Some of the teams have more than one trans woman on them and that's why they dominate. Even if they've been taking estrogen for years, these are adults in their 20s and 30s who likely have been athletes all their lives. They have a *distinct* physical advantage.
The rules vary from place to place and in some places trans girls can play if they have not gone through a male puberty. This seems like a logical step but at the same time we have nearly have our states blocking the administration of puberty blocking drugs and cross sex hormones for anyone under 21. These laws will make it impossible for transwomen to compete fairly by forcing them through an unwanted puberty.
In your example of the transwomen on the independent adult volleyball teams it would be helpful for your argument to know what their hormonal levels were but this is only required in the Olympics. The correct levels would have to be tested and maintained for a period of 3 years prior to competing. Something I'm sure that is not done in the informal leagues.
In short I'm not going to deny your casual observations but to further study the issue we need more information. A voluntary peer reviewed study might be possible and if the results lend creedance to your point of view I'm prepared to change mine.
You are RIGHT ON with this comment, IMHO. This topic needs a LOT more info before anyone can make judgments, rules or laws. In the meantime, we have to do the best we can with what we have.
I honestly don't know in every case whether it's more that they're actually committed to hating trans people, or whether it's more that they're jumping on a culture war bandwagon in a desperate attempt to cling to relevance as the world moves on without them. On the one hand, I'm inclined to accept a bigot at face value, if only for safety's sake... but the "please don't ignore me!" angle often seems more likely, especially since the people who publish this sort of shit have long since stopped making positive contributions (at least in any publicly-visible fashion) to any other subject of great importance.
And the FFRF needs to have a good think about things before the next time they allow a writer's prestige to override their editorial standards. With what's coming at trans people right now, this is a wee bit beyond a 𝘸𝘩𝘰𝘰𝘱𝘴𝘺-𝘥𝘢𝘪𝘴𝘺. I'm glad there was immediate and forceful pushback, though- and equally glad they yanked the piece (although that feeling is tempered with the certain knowledge that, once published, it's on the internet forever).
Perhaps a good yardstick for judging whether or not to run such a piece in the future is this: If you have to attach a disclaimer to a guest article to preemptively distance yourself from its contents, that's a damn good sign that you 𝘴𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘭𝘥𝘯'𝘵 𝘣𝘦 𝘳𝘶𝘯𝘯𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘭𝘦 𝘢𝘵 𝘢𝘭𝘭.
I have a theory that conservatives concentrate on culture war issues these days because they realise that ordinary people simply want progressive policies, particularly in the US where they don't really have a lot. So conservatives have really got nothing to offer otherwise.
Are you under the impression that it's only conservatives that discuss this issue?
It may come from a different place, but liberals also are concerned about the eroding of women's rights, and even the mere definition of the word woman
rIGHTS are not a zero sum game. Giving others the same rights you have do not diminish your rights, They diminish only your sense of privilege and dominion over others.
I wasn't talking about this issue alone, is just one of the raft of culture war issues that conservatives campaign on because they like to keep people afraid – having no real attractive policies as such.
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
Yet again, you continue to misspell "Schmuck". You're welcome. 😉
Will these brain turds explain how schools supposedly have fully-qualified, fully-equipped surgeons on staff when teachers can't even get paper supplies?
Humans love categories though. Sometimes the categories are helpful. Sometimes they are not. Trying to shove eight billion complex organisms with so many factors into A or B isn't helpful except as a crude generalization.
What generally gives the game away though is the attitude and political preferences of people who try to reduce the messiness of humanity to simple binary. They want to discriminate. They want to harm. They want to marginalize people outside of their self-defined norm.
He and Dawkins are proof that one doesn't need religion to be an asshole.
Yeah, they got celibate Christian homosexuals doing speaking tours in the Bible belt. I guess it's better than whipping your self on the back with chains.
Also, we simply don't know everything yet. There is a book title I love called the power of knowing what you don't know. We will always blunder when we think we know all there is to know and make decisions accordingly.
Who died and appointed you moderator of this forum? My statement was about a huge nameblock obscuring my view of several comments. This is an open forum and this has happened here before.
Chumpty Dumpty is siding with Muskrat's gigantic piggybank over the rest of his followers' demands to be (somehow) even more racist and xenophobic than he already is. Who'da thunk it, eh? Welcome to the oligarchy, MAGAts! Hope you have your checkbooks handy if you want "your" President to listen to you!
Biology is not bigotry, but bigotry has no qualms manipulating biology to make its case, as in Coyne’s article. Just as the eugenicists claim biology creates superior human races, transphobes claim biology supports their side, when it does no such thing. There’s more to it than man/woman or xx/xy, and we don’t even have all the answers of biology yet, but they’re all ready to claim it’s all that simple. Whether they claim it’s god that said it or just the first breakthrough in science that understood it, they’re done thinking about it and that’s that.
Why do we always need to define woman but never man? Why is it that only trans women are a threat to society and not trans men? It isn’t about transgender people in general, it’s about punishing men who betray the patriarchy and hating women. Of course women want to be men, so a trans man is not a threat to the status quo, they’re just tomboys who took it a little too far. But also, a trans man is still just a woman to them, and therefore too weak to be a physical threat, too dumb to be an intellectual threat, and too emotional to be an existential threat to men. But, a trans woman is wrong because they aren’t supposed to like women, especially not enough to be one, everyone should be a man or want to. But they’re too strong for the helpless women to defend against, or compete against, they’re too smart for women to work with, and, most importantly, the men might get aroused by a man in a dress and then those aroused men might be considered gay.
Why do we always need to define woman, but not man? I think it's at least in part because men are the default, and women are "other". In the same way that white people are the default, and everyone else is "other." In the same way that straight people are the default, and queer people are "other." In the same way that right-handed people are the default, and left-handed people are "other." The "others" need to be shamed, managed, explained, exploited, and so on. Is there a "gay gene"? What explains the seeming increase in the number of left-handed people today, by comparison to a century ago? Of course, one hundred years ago, left-handed people were considered to be "demonic", subjected to cruel conversion therapy, forcing them to write with their right hands, denied appropriate tools to do work, and lots more. I know because that happened to my dad, and he bore the scars on his body for the rest of his life.
Invitro, fetuses are female by default
It 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 circles back around to misogyny, doesn't it?
When the haters do bring up trans men, it's almost always to portray them as victims- innocent little girls seduced by some sinister plot to rip out their reproductive organs (for... reasons). Because, y'know, 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵'𝘴 the only 𝘪𝘮𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘵 thing about them.
I often see men obsessing quite hysterically, online like in comment sections, about "little girls getting their breasts chopped off!" as if it is a common occurrence. It's quite creepy.
OK, I hate to butt in here, as the haters are having a field day, but here's my experience with breast-reduction and breast-augmentation surgery. If we are talking about the underage crowd, that's usually straight cis girls. I don't know how common this is now, but I do know that, among my cohort (late-1960s to early 1980s), upper-middle class girls in southern California were often given a choice of 16th birthday presents: a car, or a "boob-job". How do I know? I went to college with these girls. I remember a couple who got "nose-jobs" as an alternative, so that surgery wasn't exactly uncommon either. These surgeries were expensive (translation: paid for by parents), voluntary (with parental permission/oversight), routine, and exclusively for cosmetic purposes. I remember that girls bragged about them, about how bigger boobs or smaller boobs would make them more attractive. This was at a public university campus. I guess I'd heard vaguely about such surgeries before I went to college, but so many of the girls I met there had had them as 16th birthday presents that it made my head spin. All--I repeat, all--the girls I met who had had or contemplated such surgeries were straight, cis, white girls. Not lesbians. Not trans girls. (And, yes, I knew a few of each of those.) Straight cis girls. For cosmetic purposes. I repeat that I don't know about the situation now, but the age of majority was 21 then, and these girls were getting the surgeries at 16. I agree that it's creepy to hear straight cis dudes obsessing about "little girls getting their breasts chopped off". Because it doesn't happen.
A common occurrence? Why does it have to happen a lot a girls before it's a problem? One child getting a mastectomy is one too many. Most of these kids are gender nonconforming or young lesbians. Others hate the idea of being adult women because they've been sexualized way too young.
Cutting your breasts off has to be one of the most self hating things a woman can do. Women are so hurt about their bodies, judged and self-judging to the point of hating themselves for not measuring up to the perfection of photoshopped and siliconed pop culture beauties.
It's not just men who are appalled that kids too young to get a tattoo are allowed to do this. Many women also fight against this travesty of self hatred that has befallen our children.
You missed the point the twatterer was being hysterical, because there haven’t been many cases under 17. a fact that is easily googled.
“We found that gender-affirming surgeries are rarely performed for transgender minors, suggesting that U.S. surgeons are appropriately following international guidelines around assessment and care,” said co-author https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/profile/elizabeth-rona-boskey/, instructor in the https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/social-and-behavioral-sciences/.
Lead author Dannie Dai, research data analyst in the https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/health-policy-and-management/, added, “Our findings suggest that legislation blocking gender-affirming care among TGD youth is not about protecting children, but is rooted in bias and stigma against TGD identities and seeks to address a perceived problem that does not actually exist.”
It is a very common occurrence for cis girls with precocious puberty with too large breast development for their age.
Beautiful analysis; thank you!
"Biology is not bigotry . . ."
My problem with that statement is that conservatives are predisposed to tribalism, and therefore bigotry.
Your comment is presumptuous and lacks rigor, it is filled with your own biases and assumptions, and is riddled with logical fallacies. You suggest that Coyne manipulates biology with bigotry, liken his views to eugenicists, and imply he is a transphobe—hyperbolic claims made without evidence. Despite lacking Coyne's expertise in biology and genetics, you attempt to justify your pronouncements with a mishmash of incorrect pop biology. Remarkably, based on this unscientific confusion, you believe you're correcting a distinguished evolutionary geneticist on scientific issues. While this is a deluded and insupportable position, I must commend your confidence.
Your contempt for the binary nature of sex and those who accept it as scientific truth is evident. Yet, you presume to know precisely why such people hold their views and how they justify them—an impressive yet impossible assumption. How do you claim such insight into the beliefs of so many? Clearly, you haven't asked them. Instead, you project your biases onto them as a group—job done.
This approach offers a convenient benefit: by deciding what these people are like, your suspicions are confirmed. Their views and "terrible" ideas can be dismissed as abhorrent and unworthy of your attention. Furthermore, people who hold such views are reprehensible and should not be engaged with. Another uncomfortable truth and another bigot swept aside. How very convenient.
This is neatly underlined by your meandering paragraph where you move from pop biology to equally derisory invocations of pop psychology. It's a completely speculative and presumptive attempt to analyze the psychology of people you see as anti-trans bigots and it fails glaringly. We're either terrified of trans people because they might be a threat, or won't stay in their rightful place, or we might fancy them and feel gay. Give me a break; this is lazy, juvenile, and wildly incorrect. It's also tiresome and pathetic. I should also note that you use the word 'them' in your castigation of people who accept established science. This achieves two things: it lets you set 'them' (the bad people) apart from you (the good people), and also identifies 'them' as a homogenous group of nasty people with nasty views, which is obviously fallacious.
In summary, your entire comment aligns with Christopher Hitchens's aphorism: "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
“Your contempt for the binary nature of sex and those who accept it as scientific truth is evident.”
My reality does not match your truth of the binary nature of sex. I don’t care that Coyne is a distinguished evolutionary geneticist, his conclusions do not comport with my experience. So, to me and plenty of other people, including biologists and doctors, his and your, opinions are the ones that are based on agenda.
The reality regarding good vs. bad is that people against trans people having human rights have done cruel and hurtful things, attacked not just transgender people, but cis women too. Their actions make them bad, not faulty science or bad ideas, their actions. So, your fallacy of appeal to authority aside, I am going to continue to protect the vulnerable innocent transgender and nonbinary people. As well as the innocent women and girls in the crossfire.
Firstly, recognizing the qualifications of a scientist who has spent a lifetime demonstrating expertise in their field is not a fallacious appeal to authority. Expertise matters, particularly when it is earned through decades of rigorous work.
Secondly, we are talking about biological sex here, NOT gender. Biological sex does not preclude—ever nor in any way—a person from assuming the gender identity that they wish to assume. So how, therefore, can a rigorous scientific understanding of biological sex interfere with the human rights of a trans individual? The only possible justification for claiming this is the case would be the introduction of arbitrary laws restricting what gender a person of a particular biological sex can identify as. But this is patently not the case and has never been suggested in any Western country. Therefore, a strict definition of biological sex can never restrict how a trans person chooses to identify. Do you wish to restrict available set of sex-gender combinations and transitions a person is allowed assume or perform? I emphatically do not.
I can empathize with your argument to a degree. My own “lived experience” tells me the Earth is flat—a truth reinforced by my decades of walking on what seems to be a two-dimensional plane. Where is this curve they speak of? The arrogance of these so-called “scientists” insisting the Earth is a sphere is laughable. If only they would limit their perspectives to align with mine, they might finally see the truth!
Of all your assertions, the most egregious and deeply incorrect is your claim that I oppose trans people having human rights. This is utter nonsense. I passionately support the rights of trans people—and indeed all people—and will continue to do so to my dying day. I do not doubt that you care deeply about the individuals you believe you are protecting by adhering to your anti-scientific views. Your compassion and desire to make the world a better place for everyone deserve recognition, even if I believe you misunderstand or refuse to engage with the science behind these issues.
However, your refusal to consider that I might also be acting out of care and good intentions is both unfair and misguided. You make this assumption explicit in your final paragraph:
“The reality regarding good vs. bad is that people against trans people having human rights have done cruel and hurtful things, attacked not just transgender people but cis women too. Their actions make them bad, not faulty science or bad ideas—their actions. So, your fallacy of appeal to authority aside, I am going to continue to protect the vulnerable, innocent transgender and nonbinary people, as well as the innocent women and girls in the crossfire.”
Here, you frame this as a battle between “good” and “bad,” with me cast as “bad.” You imply that I oppose trans people’s human rights, condone attacks on trans people and women, and that my acceptance of scientific evidence somehow precludes me from protecting the vulnerable. This characterization is not only untrue but also patronizing and dismissive.
You must recognize that holding a different perspective on scientific or ethical issues does not grant you a monopoly on compassion or morality, nor does it make me—or anyone who disagrees with you—bigoted, cruel, or unsympathetic. As a father of two daughters, I care deeply about women’s rights and will defend them passionately, just as I care about the rights of all people.
Perhaps a little introspection is in order. A differing opinion does not make someone a bad person, nor does it imply moral inferiority. Accepting this might allow for a more meaningful and constructive conversation.
“I am going to continue to protect the vulnerable innocent transgender and nonbinary people.”
Lol, you've really drunk the cool-aid. Go save all those “vulnerable innocent transgender” male convicted rapists who've demanded to be put in female prisons. Guess what there doing there after declaring themselves to be women – Yep, they're raping more women.
I'm gonna say that the women and children these poor “vulnerable innocent transgender and nonbinary people” have raped are more oppressed than the rapists.
And let's not forget the middle aged heterosexual males who call themselves women. Since they want to screw women, they now call themselves lesbians and go on lesbian dating apps where they harass actual lesbians, calling them bigots and getting them kicked out for not want to have sex with them and their female penises. Poor oppressed “vulnerable innocent transgender and nonbinary people.”
Then there are all the AGP and other perverts who call themselves women. They demand and get access to women in female showers at your local YMCA. Poor “vulnerable innocent transgender and nonbinary people” need to oppress actual women in order to feel good about themselves.
You really are clueless.
Every accusation is a confession.
Yep, me thinks the asshole protests too much.
Are you ignoring the reality that people can change their sex? As in primary and secondary sex characteristics, mainly their appearance and many biological functions. Sex hormones do a bulk of the work in a sex change, it even alters immune responses. No one seems to acknowledge this, that your biology is subject to change.
Maxwell, you are confusing sex with sex traits. This is a category mistake. Sex is what you get a conception, regardless of your genetic expression. Sex traits or characteristics are what happens as a result of genetic expression with secondary sex characteristics developing during puberty. Some males don't fully develop a penis and scrotum, like the Algerian boxer who won gold last summer when he beat the crap out of a woman. Having a DSD doesn't magically make a male into the opposite sex. Cutting off your penis doesn't turn you into a woman. It makes you a man without a penis. Women are not dickless men. When a girl or woman gets a mastectomy, she doesn't become a man. Taking testosterone to make her face and body hairy doesn't turn her into a man. The best she can do is mimic men. She'll never be one.
I think it's harder for men to understand the difference between sex vs sex traits. That's because they are taught to think of women in terms of their secondary sex characteristics. When men see boobs on a “trans woman” they think of that person as female. But if you want to know if a male transgender is actually a woman, a lesbian can easily tell the difference. We're not attracted to men with fake boobs.
The science is pretty clear, gender is not binary, it's on as spectrum, as is sexuality, as it turns out. Sex, gender, humanity, are all complicated. So here's a thought, Mind Your Own F cking Business. What someone else does or who they are has Zero bearing on you. Unless they are telling you how you should be, or live; STFU and let them be who they are. It is NONE OF YOUR F CKING BUSINESS. If you don't like people different from you in your space, work, neighborhood, wherever, too bad, Mind Your Own F cking Business. I'm sure everyone in your life has things the dislike or even hate about you and you don't know this because they Mind Their Own F cking Business. So to reiterate, Live and Let Live and MIND YOUR OWN F CKING BUSINESS.
It is amazing how many of society's problems could be solved if a few more people followed that simple bit of advice.
Their jesus demands they be meddlesome assholes. I was taught that every time someone sinned I was blamed by god for not stopping their sinning. And they call this monster of nterference "just" and "loving." I am reminded of a saying on fb. If kkkriststains in Rome were like today's people it is easy to see why they were fed to lions."
That would make a good tee shirt. "Bring back traditional values, feed the Christians to the lions"
https://www.gocomics.com/rubes/2024/12/29
I'm gonna save this in a safe space for later use.
Another asshole who got his comment removed. I'm sure you know that this about Imane Khelif not because you've done genetic tests on her, not because you were present at her birth, not because you were present during her life at all, but because you were told this by some right wing idiot who doesn't know anymore than you do, but has managed to convince you that something you couldn't possibly know must be true because that's what you prefer to think.
WHY do you keep harping on kat? Are yoou related?
I’m happy to mind my own business provided men (including trans women) stay out of women’s sports and washrooms.
No, you're not and would not be happy with that.
First, trans people, like everyone else, need a place to pee and a place to change. There is not the slightest bit of evidence that they present any general danger to anyone. Yes, there are a few examples of people who claim to be transgender and who have penises harassing women. But normal people would refer to them as heterosexual men. The Vast majority present no problem whatsoever.
People with gender dysphoria comprise about 1/2 of one percent of humanity. Actual transgender people represent a tiny minority of that 1/2 of 1 percent. Transgender people who are interested in sports represent and even tinier minority of that tiny minority of 1/2 of one percent. And the people most qualified to deal with it, sports organizations, don't seem to have a problem with it.
Do you know who has a problem with it? Culture warriors. MAGAts. Religious dominionists.
If trans people had any advantage in sports, they would be winning all of the time. But yet, we don't hear about that. Moreover,If the only concern you show about women's sports is when transgender people are participating, then maybe your concern really isn't about women's sports.
Women’s rights are sex based and women do not want males in our spaces. Please stay out. When a woman says no she means no.
Women’s rights are not sex based, they are human based. The same as trans rights, gay rights, Jewish rights, black rights.
I live in one of the most transgender friendly areas of the country, if not the world. If the concerns of anti-trans people were actually reality based, we would find constant news reports of transgender men creating problems for women. But we don’t. There are no more reality based than the people who are concerned about Jewish people or Black people or gay people moving into their neighborhoods.
One of my best friends is a woman who goes to a gym every single day. She has told me that she and other women are well aware there are some transgender women in their locker room. Those transgender women do not harass anyone, do not make a spectacle of themselves, do nothing to bother anyone except go in and change. Like all the rest of the women, when they need to pee, they go into a stall and close the door.
Prior to the pandemic, when I went to the gym three or four times a week, I was well aware that there were transgender men in the locker room. They also bothered no one. They made no spectacle of themselves. They simply needed a place to change or a place to pee.
None of this was an issue at all until about 10 years ago, when the religious right, having lost the battle against gay people and our full Participation in society, Needed a new target, A new source of outrage and fundraising, More innocent people to attack in their never ending quest for power, money, and religious dominion. Transgender people have been using locker rooms and restrooms forever without and significant incident. I suspect that you have been using locker rooms and restrooms for years alongside transgender people without ever knowing it, because they’re not making an issue of it. They simply need a place to pee or change their clothes.
That’s it.
If you’re worried about predators, then make sure the laws against predators are strong and enforced. But thinking of every trans person as a predator simply sets up enemies.
WTF who appointed you queen of all women? You don't speak for anyone but yourself!
IOW, you don't want trans𝐰𝐨𝐦𝐞𝐧 in 𝐰𝐨𝐦𝐞𝐧's spaces.
They are winning all the time. Just one recent example: Flying Bats FC, based in Sydney, Australia. Five transgender women and has achieved significant success in competitions:
• Beryl Ackroyd Cup (March 2024): Flying Bats FC won all their matches, including a 10-0 victory where one transgender player scored six goals. They claimed the final 4-0 and received a $1,000 prize.
• North West Sydney Women’s Premier League (August 2024): The team finished the season undefeated, scoring 65 goals and conceding only four. They won the championship final 5-4 against West Pennant Hills Cherrybrook FC.
"First, trans people, like everyone else, need a place to pee and a place to change. There is not the slightest bit of evidence that they present any general danger to anyone."
No evidence? Male convicted rapists who are transgender (all it takes is him saying it's so!) have been placed in female prisons where they are, surprise! raping more women. These new rape cases can be found in court listings in states stupid enough to believe men can magically change their sex.
Maybe you should do your homework before embarrassing yourself.
20 million Democrats just refused to vote for the Democrats in 2024. They're not MAGA or culture warriors or religious dominionists. They're rank and file Democrats who are fed up with being gaslit by people like you who pretend it's no big deal to accept men in women's spaces.
Take them back into your male spaces Ben. We're done with them. You're such a great supporter, you shower with them.
I have.
And I have no problem with it.
And again, the problem seems to be heterosexual men, people with penises. Heterosexual men rape other men in prison as well. Putting an identified transgender person with violent male prisoners in a highly segregated environment is putting them at risk as well. So what are you going to do?
The answer is actually pretty simple: it’s not so difficult to determine who is actually transgender and who is pretending to be transgender. It’s not so difficult to have rules in prison where if you have any kind of a sexual assault, you are segregated. All of this can be worked out.
As for the people that refuse to vote, I doubt it was the transgender issue, but it was a related one: They couldn’t see a woman As president.
I'm sure you know that this about Imane Khelif not because you've done genetic tests on her, not because you were present at her birth, not because you were present during her life at all, but because you were told this by some right wing idiot who doesn't know anymore than you do, but has managed to convince you that something you couldn't possibly know must be true because that's what you prefer to think.
You give it all away with your failure to site any sources, any names, any actual information (which 2016 800 m race) any anything. You are of course referring to Caster Semenya--One person, not three. Semenya Has internal testicles. So what is a man? So what is a woman? Oh, you're not interested in the answer to that question now.
Now show me exactly how much you are concerned about women's sports, or would be if your imagination about transgender males dominating the sports was not your only concern.
This is the same nonsense that says that drag queen's reading stories to children is grooming those children. This is the same nonsense that says that transgender women are hanging around women's restroom so that they can harass and rape women and little girls. This is the same nonsense that says the gay men are a threat to children because men who are identified as heterosexual By their communities and by themselves molest little boys.
Cite your sources.
Personall, I could give a flying fuck about who is in the next stall.
How about sports? How about La Leche League, for nursing mothers. Women bring their babies to the meetings and nurse them. There should not be men present in this situation.
https://millihill.substack.com/p/i-wont-support-breastfeeding-men
"This includes all kinds of women - married, single, other, young, old, lesbian, nonbinary and transmen. The dynamic would not be the same with men present."
Did you not catch her bigotry? I will award you a No-Prize if you can explain it.
I know right? They probably peek under the stalls every chance they get using that as an excuse. Fucking bathroom obsessives.
Women have nothing to fear from me.
Did you lose a women's athletics scholarship? Are you sure everyone who was better than you had strict XX genes?
Is it worth being mad about this?
Nope I’ve never been an athlete. It’s not fair to allow men in women’s sports. Why were women’s sports made separate in the first place? Men are bigger and stronger.
Something doesn't matter unless it affects you personally?
Talk about privilege.
Some women and girls affected just with the sports issue:
Shewon.org
Hecheated.org
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
Not sure why we should care about your bigotry. Mind your own dang business.
As a cis woman I would rather share a bathroom with a transwoman, than a christian bigot who wants genital inspections done, any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.
I have used unisex bathrooms in Europe and they work fine. Who the hell is so stupid they think people lurk in public restrooms, anyway?
It isn't your business where transwomen pee.
Yes!!! What does anyone get in anyone else’s business??!!! Live and let live….live your life BUT let me live mine the way I see fit for me….
THIS! ⬆️
I applaud your most excellent suggestion. Too bad so many weirdos who obsess about others, can't seem to withdraw their nose from any of our private parts.
This is a debate about biological sex, about which there are 2 (male and female), not gender, which is social.
Disproven. You might consider reading through all the comments when you are this late to the party.
The irony of your comment...
Oh you silly summer chjld, you dropped out of biology didn't you?
Spewing fückwïttëry is an American Right, one I served to preserve (you're welcome). Spew on, fückwït!
I am a transgender woman. I began my transition in 1999 when I could no longer overcome my dysphoria. These people who are against transgender people don't have the first clue what we go through. Hours upon hours of counselors, psychologists and doctors. Spending thousand of dollars changing your wardrobe, and learning about makeup. Researching surgeons and their techniques and outcomes. It's not a game. Nobody is doing this for fun. I wouldn't wish this abuse on my worst enemy. You walk around wondering if someone will clock you and take umbrage to your existence and beat you or even kill you. To see people that I admired, these atheist thinkers and leaders, deny my reality, and the reality of most of us, and the actual science, is just another twist of the knife. I cried when Dawkins went out and started denying us. We just want to live our lives the way that makes us feel the most right in our own bodies. Give us a break and leave us alone!
Strange that 25 years ago when I started using the women's rest room, nobody was talking about this. For over 15 years we never heard of this. Then, slowly, it started to surface. Now the christian right has jumped on it since they got their wish on abortion, they need a new boogeyman to rally against. Religion enables this kind of insanity. Don't like transgender people? Ignore them like you do school shootings.
I wonder what conservatives will say when they make it mandatory for trans-men to use the women's room?
Isn't it odd that 97% of every post on the subject is about trans-women, and not trans-men, despite trans-men being statistically much more prevalent. Yet they are seldom posting bout how unfairly they are treated. Why would that be?
I keep asking, so what year did transwomen start raping women in restrooms ? Cause this is a recent problem right ?/s
Sadly erligion is far worse than Dawkins and coyne. Their god of ignorance and superstition has proclaimed from on high on high what hatred we are to push on anyone daring to be different.
Humans are a wondrously diverse lot. Gods were invented to quash that diversity and make everyone march to the drumbeat of some dictator-wannabe's faerie in the sky.
Coyne and Dawkins are placing biological reality, that is observable and testable, above an ideological belief.
The belief that some men actually have a women's brain or soul.
A belief that is completely untestable and is self-reported
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
Also, you misspelled "Schmuck". 😉
Just like god. Just like the bible and saints and all the other hate mongering shit they preach.
Nature magazine April 9 2020, "Transgender individuals (TIs) show brain-structural alterations that differ from their biological sex as well as their perceived gender." Google it. There are many scientific papers where scientists have found measurable differences between Trans- individuals and Cis-individuals. There's a great deal of science behind it. Unlike religion.
And when you include the confounding variable of homosexuality???
"The belief that some men actually have a women's brain . . ."
There have been MRIs that say otherwise.
On what way? Are you saying transwomxn can be detected via an MRI scan? That would be amazing news. Nobel Prize territory.
Some day we will figure it out. What we know now is not the end all and be all of biology or psychology, or any other science for that matter. Just because we don't have an answer yet doesn't mean there isn't an answer waiting to be discovered.
And of course, that's not what is being claimed. That's what you were claiming. Please learn to distinguish between what you think and reality.
Before single god religions popped up people were more accepting of others differences.
I have a trans son. I know he is brave. He doesn’t say much about the difficulties. I know he has encountered bigotries. Thank you for sharing.
You are discussing the methods you use to appear more like a woman. Methods and accesories one can buy.
If that makes you feel better, that is great. But it doesn't change the fact that sex and mammals cannot be changed. And women shouldn't be called bigots for noticing this
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
Also, you continue to misspell "Schmuck". You're welcome. 😉
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
🩵
Thank you John. IDIC is a beautiful thing! Live long and prosper!
I don't have much time now, but I will say this much. The very people who say that "biology is not bigotry" are the very same people who made exactly the same claim when it came to gay people in general, gay marriage and gay rights in particular.
And what is also exactly the same is that exactly the same people are telling exactly the same kinds of lies for exactly the same reasons to cause exactly the same kinds of harm to people they don't know, know nothing about, whose lives don't intersect with theirs in the least, and who have done them and intend them no harm.
It is absolutely true that biology is not bigotry. It is also absolutely true that bigots use their particular version of biology To justify their desire to be bigots.
If it will make you happy, I was generalizing. As with everything else, I’m sure you can find an example of someone who can falsify something or other. But listening to the right wing attacks, the religious attacks, the conservative Republican attacks, on gay people and trans people…
Overall, in general, with very few exceptions…
THE VERY SAME PEOPLE ARE ATTACKING TRANS PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN ATTACKING GAY PEOPLE FOR THE ENTIRETY OF MY ADULT LIFE.
USUALLY FOR THE SAME REASONS.
IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAYS.
EXPECTING THE SAME RESULTS.
No, as a gay man, I am quite well aware of how the religious right works.
The vast majority of sexual assaults and harassment of women is perpetrated by heterosexual men. Theculture warrior prefer to pretend it transgender men in locker rooms.
There are some few examples of trans athletes succeeding. That does not amount to oppression of all women by all trans women.
Nobody is asking that males be allowed in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7teTvq2MHH0
At the end of the day, true believers of all stripes want to be able to decide what is, or is not, true based on what ever magic book they're reading from. Objective evidence need not apply. I would add one more example of how religion has hurt people, and that would be the fight for women's suffrage.
"In the early days of woman suffrage agitation I saw that the greatest obstacle we had to overcome was the Bible. It was hurled at us on every side." -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton, 1897.
Talk about weaponizing religion...
Coyne belongs with Dawkins in a human rights hall of shame.
Never mind, I found the rest. No explanation needed.
Hmmmm, how did you come to that conclusion? I just noticed your other comments. Can you explain?
Thanks for including the thoughtful video by Drew from Genetically Modified Skeptic. He's facing the same dilemma that my paternal grandfather faced 90-ish years ago, when a candidate for governor in his state of Utah made a lucrative offer: "Endorse me and I'll make you my secretary of state." Grandpa (labor organizer, activist) shot back, "I wouldn't endorse you if you were the last man in Utah." Then he went all around the state and told everybody what the guy had done. Upshot: the guy lost the election and, ever after, attributed his loss to "that damned Bill Leonard." I heard that story many times as a child in the 50s and 60s, but it wasn't til I got to college that I realized grandpa was describing an attempted bribe, one that would have put him, his children, his grandchildren, and even his great-grandchildren in positions of power, wealth and influence. Grandpa wasn't a stupid man; I'm sure he knew what his refusal to be bribed meant. He said to us grandkids, "The first time they try to buy you, you find out how much you're worth to them. After that, your price goes down." Of course, grandpa wasn't talking about human rights as we think of them today, but I think the same principle holds: sell out once, for pride, position, power, and you'll sell out again. And again. And again.
Excellent response! Your grandpa sounds wise.
Sometimes he was. He was human, though, and had the usual human problems, including drinking too much. He did tell some wonderful stories, especially when he'd had a few beers. I still remember his stories about organizing Mexican railroad workers, during the time that Pancho Villa was operating in northern Mexico. Quite a character. He died in '72, and I still miss him terribly.
Somewhat off the subject matter but also appreciate people like your grandfather who despite his own circumstances and struggles, pushed back on a ambitious, greedy self-server. Imagine
what the US would be like if there were more unsung hero's of the Labor movement like that? 🤔
- Award living wages.
- Health & safety in the
workplace.
- National health care.
- Pensions in line with inflation
- Free child care & support
- Superannuation
- Gender equality & diversity
- Ethnic equality & diversity
- Free - subsidised education
- Public ownership of common
property, assets & resources.
And to think 🤔 that when workers unionise its 'demonic'
socialism. But when businesses and industry do so - in the form of federations, guilds, societies, councils, associations, alliances, industry lobbyist - it's sound entreneurship.
Definitely. Reading and learning about those working people--and, though we may not know their names or deeds any more--there are more of them than we tend to think. I have a book called "From the folks who brought you the weekend", which makes the point that many of the work benefits we enjoy were hard won by those now-forgotten people. Bottom line, when contrasting working people with capitalists: we are many, they are few. And we don't have to go it alone.
Coyne my Trans friends and my Queer friends and myself all strongly disagree with you. Coyne go fuck yourself and your opinions-- never publish anything again you dim witted ahole. 🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️
Reality doesn't go away because you try to hide everyone that speaks it
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
BTW, you continue to misspell "Schmuck". You're welcome. 😉
Why do you come to the conclusion that a liberal atheist woman who thinks that women are fully human and deserving the right of some male-free spaces, is transphobic? Trans women aren't always welcome in women's spaces, not because they are trans, but because they are male.
It's not very difficult to understand. Yet you don't understand it
"liberal atheist woman" - none of which are proven fact.
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
BTW, you continue to misspell "Schmuck". You're welcome. Now go fuck yourself. 😉
Well, *you* are....seek professional help. 🙃
De-platforming is not hiding and anyone is free to speak their point of view on whatever platform allows it.
Trans persons are fully deserving of human rights and are such a tiny minority in society that it is easy to beat them up (metaphorically!) with little consequence. Dawkins is a jerk, using his prominence to bully a group that is almost defenseless.
I would much rather bully donOLD trump - the doddering pseudo-fascist with no love in his heart for anyone but himself and who is surrounded by anti-trans sexual deviants who exploit minors for sex or release themselves by sexually assaulting the sofa.
Aren't women also deserving of fully human rights? The rights to have some places that are male-free for security, privacy and dignity?
White women did not have a right to deny black women access to "white" public facilities despite white women claiming they needed those spaces for "security, privacy and dignity".
So no, cis women do not have a right to exclude trans women (or any cis woman that they FEEL is a trans woman) from public facilities just because they are uncomfortable with the idea of anything even remotely related to males.
If you're OK with a cis woman wearing ago Nazi flag and shouting Nazi talking points going into the women's bathroom despite her being a literal threat to many other women, then you can get over your irrational phobia to trans women.
Black women and white women are women.
Men with an internal sense they should have been born as women, are NOT women.
TRAs comparing black women to men as a gotcha is getting old.
If everyone is calling you a racist maybe you should stop and think for a second if things you are saying have been historically used to attack black people and consider no longer spreading racist talking points
Beautifully said!
It IS an irrational phobia - trans women are extremely vulnerable, a tiny minority, while white CIS women are the 2nd most-privileged group after white CIS males.
How does one tell apart a trans woman and a man saying that he's a trans woman? Are women not allowed to have spaces free of males regardless of their internal gender feelings? The idea that trans women who have male bodies are more vulnerable than women is ridiculous and not based in any crime statistics.
Trans identity carries no magically transformative properties that makes a male person not male. Calling yourself transgender doesn’t alter material reality of sex. In any physical match up with males, even the TransId ones, the female is vulnerable. TransID males have a higher rate of sxx offenses than other males. The gaslighting from your lot is abuse.
Comparing black women to men in dresses is racism/misogynoir. TransW are males, not a type of woman, but males. GTFOH!
You're a white guy who is obsessed with the idea of "men who enjoy dressing up as women". You don't get to decide for black women what is or is not racism.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/for-women-athletes-of-color-outsized-scrutiny-over-gender-is-nothing-new-historians-say
Touch grass, bot
Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? Calling transwomen men is sexist bigotry.
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
Again, you continue to misspell "Schmuck". You're welcome. 😉
Don't transwomen have the right to a place that is free of men who have demonstrated that they like to molest them.
TransW are men. You deal with other men and leave women alone. We don’t owe you anything and feel exactly the same way about you (with your higher than normal rate of sexual violence) that we feel about other men. Back off!! Leave women alone!!
A "tiny minority"? The entire Democratic Party was willing to lose the presidential election to #45 rather than have anyone say that "a woman is an adult human female." After the economy, open borders, 'gender over sex' lost them 17% in the polls.
Neither Harris nor the Democratic party campaigned on trans rights. The repukelicans did.
Somehow spending almost four years wholeheartedly supporting trans rights in every conceivable way, then with a few months left to go, completely ignoring and even hiding the fact that they did so, did not go unnoticed by the voters.
The Biden administration absolutely did not support transfolk in every way. We were hoping for so much more especially in the first three years.
The trans issues simply weren't big on voter's minds when polled. It was the economy. Lots of Dems withheld or switched their votes because of the Dems ongoing support of war in Palestine. The Republicans may have made trans issues their biggest issue but that wasn't why they one.
If you watched any of the debates it was barely touched on by Biden or Harris. Trans issues weren't mentioned by the Dems in any advertising.
This is John Donne's: 'No man is an island...'
What I don’t get is why are so many people threatened by the existence of trans people?
I rather suspect it has more than a little to do with our very existence being proof that they're wrong about something- with the religious bigots, it's the infallibility of their god; with the "scientific" bigots, it's that their knowledge of the human condition is far more incomplete than they'd like to admit.
It often has to do with what they feedl deep inside. Just as homophobes are forcing down their own desires, there is a lot of this within themselves. Given the little I have read of gestation and various hormone jolts of a specific value and timing I think these traits run rampant in the human species. Given the baggage society has loaded into gender and sex, no wonder so many see it as a danger to themselves and their identity. Gay is found in most mammals. Homophobia is found in only one species.
Ignorance.
I've thought a lot about this and I think it boils down to "How dare you be happy/genuine and live a meaningful life while I have to repress myself because society/religion says I won't be saved/respected/fit in if I don't?"
I'm sure there's a much more succinct way to put this.
I've been thinking this for a long time, Mr. B! I think they are angry when they see people with the intestinal fortitude to go through what we go through and feel that we might have stronger character than them, and it makes them crazy.
There's no doubt that it takes strong character and much bravery to be trans.
I hear you. Makes zero sense to me, but then there are people out there for whom standards and norms are EVERYTHING, and the second those are violated, they lose their shit.
I don't pretend to know why. Just sayin' what I see.
Because thy despise in themselves what they dislike in others.
I think that conservatives want to live in a simple world with simple categories. You are either a man or a woman, black or white. When you get a man or woman who doesn't fit into one of their nice neat categories its jarring to them. They couldn't get it in their heads that Kamala Harris identified as both Black and Indian. To conservatives men are men and they must act like "This." Women are women and they must act like "That." When I was a kid conservatives got all upset when young men started wearing their hair long, then they went to pray to Jesus who in western culture is typically pictured with long hair.
Their binary thinking is due to a neurological defect. The part of the brain that allows us to deal with ambiguity is underdeveloped in conservatives.
Existence isn't the issue. It's demanding society change to allow males into women's private spaces. It is because it is demanding children with developing brains to make permanent medical decisions that will affect them the rest of their life, even if they desist later on
Can you give me a specific case of someone demanding a child make a “permanent medical decision?”
Not exactly accurate. The study found that students that were doing well mentally continued to do well after two years.
Tacos are among nature's strongest swimmers.
See, I can spew fückwïttëry same as you! 🤣
That happened because her parents consented to it. So far there is only one side of this being told. It will be interesting to hear the other side.
Do you look over or under stall walls to make sure the person in the next stall meets your expectations? People who are that concerned are frightening.
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
BTW, you continue to misspell "Schmuck". You're welcome. 😉
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
Are you familiar with Buck Angel? That’s his stage name. You can look up images easily enough and you should before reading the rest of this comment.
Buck was born female. Here’s why you don’t want to have society demand that Buck use the women’s restroom: because then anyone who looks anything remotely like Buck Angel can walk into a women’s restroom pretending to be female.
Who has been cheating? Cheating implies someone is just pretending to be a woman solely to win at a sport. Can you give me a specific instance of that happening?
Imane Khelif was born a woman, Spanky.
Find someone who only became trans after they entered sports.
Who?
I read this on Joe.My.God, and it's new to me even though I taught middle-school sex ed for 30 years.
Secular Party of America
·
The more you know...
Rebecca Helm, a biologist and an assistant professor at the University of North Carolina, Asheville US writes:
Friendly neighborhood biologist here. I see a lot of people are talking about biological sexes and gender right now. Lots of folks make biological sex sex seem really simple. Well, since it’s so simple, let’s find the biological roots, shall we? Let’s talk about sex...[a thread]
If you know a bit about biology you will probably say that biological sex is caused by chromosomes, XX and you’re female, XY and you’re male. This is “chromosomal sex” but is it “biological sex”? Well...
Turns out there is only ONE GENE on the Y chromosome that really matters to sex. It’s called the SRY gene. During human embryonic development, the SRY protein turns on male-associated genes. Having an SRY gene makes you “genetically male”. But is this “biological sex”?
Sometimes that SRY gene pops off the Y chromosome and over to an X chromosome. Surprise! So now you’ve got an X with an SRY and a Y without an SRY. What does this mean?
A Y with no SRY means physically you’re female, chromosomally you’re male (XY) and genetically you’re female (no SRY). An X with an SRY means you’re physically male, chromosomally female (XX) and genetically male (SRY). But biological sex is simple! There must be another answer...
Sex-related genes ultimately turn on hormones in specifics areas on the body, and reception of those hormones by cells throughout the body. Is this the root of “biological sex”??
https://scontent-mia3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/466861748_867040785606351_8099155521314938191_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s600x600&_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=127cfc&_nc_ohc=v8IwjflsHLUQ7kNvgGhj9nF&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-1.xx&_nc_gid=ANFF07Kv4TOQ63Tf9ugNKJu&oh=00_AYCPJ0RnJlNtXiAG9eZoC_9bKP3rDzBDQlXSjbTpIM0krw&oe=673E1580
“Hormonal male” means you produce ‘normal’ levels of male-associated hormones. Except, some percentage of females will have higher levels of ‘male’ hormones than some percentage of males. Ditto ditto ‘female’ hormones. And...
...if you’re developing, your body may not produce enough hormones for your genetic sex. Leading you to be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally non-binary, and physically non-binary. Well, except cells have something to say about this...
Maybe cells are the answer to “biological sex”?? Right?? Cells have receptors that “hear” the signal from sex hormones. But sometimes those receptors don’t work. Like a mobile phone that’s on “do not disturb’. Call and cell, they will not answer.
What does this all mean?
It means you may be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally male/female/non-binary, with cells that may or may not hear the male/female/non-binary call, and all this leading to a body that can be male/non-binary/female.
Try out some combinations for yourself. Notice how confusing it gets? Can you point to what the absolute cause of biological sex is? Is it fair to judge people by it?
Of course you could try appealing to the numbers. “Most people are either male or female” you say. Except that as a biologist professor I will tell you...
The reason I don’t have my students look at their own chromosome in class is because people could learn that their chromosomal sex doesn’t match their physical sex, and learning that in the middle of a 10-point assignment is JUST NOT THE TIME.
Biological sex is complicated. Before you discriminate against someone on the basis of “biological sex” & identity, ask yourself: have you seen YOUR chromosomes? Do you know the genes of the people you love? The hormones of the people you work with? The state of their cells?
Since the answer will obviously be no, please be kind, respect people’s right to tell you who they are, and remember that you don’t have all the answers. Again: biology is complicated. Kindness and respect don’t have to be.
Note: Biological classifications exist. XX, XY, XXY XXYY and all manner of variation which is why sex isn't classified as binary. You can't have a binary classification system with more than two configurations even if two of those configurations are more common than others.
Biology is a shitshow. Be kind to people.
Plus XYY. Mpst XYY people never even know it.
“Be kind to people.”
Unfortunately when trans “women” wish to compete in women’s sports, something has to give. Biological males have a huge advantage in sports. It’s unfair to biological women to permit them to compete.
If the advantage is so great why are trans people not winning everything?
Guess FKs never seen Ronda Rousey...a biological woman...take down men.
The best men in a sport will ALWAYS beat women. That’s why there are separate women’s sports.
Because some men are not that athletic. But in hundreds of documented cases, women have lost to men in sports.
I don’t have anything against trans women in general, I just don’t think it’s fair for them to compete against biological women.
There are millions of documented cases of trans women losing to cis women. In fact, no trans women athletes have dominated any sport. Occasionally a trans woman might win first or second place, but most of the time, those same trans women only make 8th place, tie for 5th place, or don't even rank at all.
Your ideology that any win by a trans woman takes away a win by a cis woman is illogical. Not only are there a few dozen trans athletes competing against literally MILLIONS of cis women athletes globally, but it is the exact same argument used by racists back in the day when they wanted to keep black women out of women's sports.
If they are 'not that athletic, why are they competing?
I have such mixed feelings about this, and personal anecdotes to back them up.
My 30-year-old daughter has played competitive volleyball her entire life. After college, there isn't much high-level competition unless you join a league with like-minded (and skilled) women. However, there is an organization called the North American Gay Volleyball Association, which hosts tournaments around the country for adult men and women. They are VERY competitive. My daughter and six highly skilled women regularly play in these tournaments, usually in NorCal and Vegas. I've been to several.
Most of the teams have no transgender women on them, but there are a few that do, and those players are AMAZING. The all cis-gender women's teams pretty much know they won't win, but it's very fun to play the "mixed" teams. The trans women hit the ball so much harder, jump so much higher, and are so much quicker than the cis-women it's really not fair, especially on a women's-height net, but the all-cis teams know going into these tournaments that that's going to happen. And one time...one time...my daughter's team actually won the entire tournament! When she told me I said, "NO WAY! NO WAY!" I've seen them play! They're unbeatable! But my daughter said their opponents got in each other's way mentally and just fell apart. So beating them was a HUGE boost to their egos!
These NAGVA tournaments are great competition. The women who play in them know exactly what they're getting into. I absolutely don't have a problem with this. There are also boys who play on girls' club volleyball teams either because there weren't enough girls to make a team or the boys don't have a boys' team to play on. I don't have a problem with this, either, because these are prepubescent boys who aren't any stronger/faster than their female teammates (yet).
However...these are trans women who have already gone through puberty and have the musculature and testosterone that cis-men have...and that's not a fair fight. I've seen it.
And I'm torn.
I don't believe these aggressive trans volleyball players you talk about even exist, but even if they did, it is absolute insanity to believe that one exceptionally good player on a team of 6 would carry the whole team to victory.
Also, trans women who take HRT, even if they "have already gone through puberty", do not have any competitive advantage over cis women. I am an MtF trans woman, and I take estrogen, and my "musculature" (sic) is basically gone. I can't even open a pickle jar.
Trans women are not just bulky men in dresses, and your caricature of them as such is transphobic and quite disgusting. And that is the main reason I believe you are lying about the existence of the trans volleyball players who apparently are leagues better than the cis women players.
Also, you call them "mixed" teams. If they are teams filled with both male and female players, then how can you be upset when you compete against players you view as "male"? It's giving transphobia.
I am not a liar.
Google https://nagva.org
Check their schedule. The next tournament is in Vegas in January. There may be a tournament in your area. You should go watch! It's great competition.
Some of the teams have more than one trans woman on them and that's why they dominate. Even if they've been taking estrogen for years, these are adults in their 20s and 30s who likely have been athletes all their lives. They have a *distinct* physical advantage.
The rules vary from place to place and in some places trans girls can play if they have not gone through a male puberty. This seems like a logical step but at the same time we have nearly have our states blocking the administration of puberty blocking drugs and cross sex hormones for anyone under 21. These laws will make it impossible for transwomen to compete fairly by forcing them through an unwanted puberty.
In your example of the transwomen on the independent adult volleyball teams it would be helpful for your argument to know what their hormonal levels were but this is only required in the Olympics. The correct levels would have to be tested and maintained for a period of 3 years prior to competing. Something I'm sure that is not done in the informal leagues.
In short I'm not going to deny your casual observations but to further study the issue we need more information. A voluntary peer reviewed study might be possible and if the results lend creedance to your point of view I'm prepared to change mine.
You are RIGHT ON with this comment, IMHO. This topic needs a LOT more info before anyone can make judgments, rules or laws. In the meantime, we have to do the best we can with what we have.
How many girls have lost a sports scholarship to a trans girl ? I'll wait while you research it ...
I honestly don't know in every case whether it's more that they're actually committed to hating trans people, or whether it's more that they're jumping on a culture war bandwagon in a desperate attempt to cling to relevance as the world moves on without them. On the one hand, I'm inclined to accept a bigot at face value, if only for safety's sake... but the "please don't ignore me!" angle often seems more likely, especially since the people who publish this sort of shit have long since stopped making positive contributions (at least in any publicly-visible fashion) to any other subject of great importance.
And the FFRF needs to have a good think about things before the next time they allow a writer's prestige to override their editorial standards. With what's coming at trans people right now, this is a wee bit beyond a 𝘸𝘩𝘰𝘰𝘱𝘴𝘺-𝘥𝘢𝘪𝘴𝘺. I'm glad there was immediate and forceful pushback, though- and equally glad they yanked the piece (although that feeling is tempered with the certain knowledge that, once published, it's on the internet forever).
Perhaps a good yardstick for judging whether or not to run such a piece in the future is this: If you have to attach a disclaimer to a guest article to preemptively distance yourself from its contents, that's a damn good sign that you 𝘴𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘭𝘥𝘯'𝘵 𝘣𝘦 𝘳𝘶𝘯𝘯𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘭𝘦 𝘢𝘵 𝘢𝘭𝘭.
I have a theory that conservatives concentrate on culture war issues these days because they realise that ordinary people simply want progressive policies, particularly in the US where they don't really have a lot. So conservatives have really got nothing to offer otherwise.
From what I have seen they offer hatred, division, exclusion, persecution and damnation in the name of imaginary gods.
Are you under the impression that it's only conservatives that discuss this issue?
It may come from a different place, but liberals also are concerned about the eroding of women's rights, and even the mere definition of the word woman
rIGHTS are not a zero sum game. Giving others the same rights you have do not diminish your rights, They diminish only your sense of privilege and dominion over others.
I wasn't talking about this issue alone, is just one of the raft of culture war issues that conservatives campaign on because they like to keep people afraid – having no real attractive policies as such.
Your transphobia is a treatable mental health condition. Please avail yourself of the services of a licensed mental health care professional...you needn't continue to suffer.
Yet again, you continue to misspell "Schmuck". You're welcome. 😉
This is getting old.
The overwhelming majority of transgender women are very strong supporters of women's rights.
I wish just one parent who sent a little boy to school and got back a little girl would please stand up.
If schools like those actually existed, I'd have been a 𝘸𝘢𝘺 better student.
I wish I had gone to one as a child.
Same!
Given the difficulty of prising so much as a paracetamol out of the bloody school nurse if you have a headache, these schools will never exist.
Will these brain turds explain how schools supposedly have fully-qualified, fully-equipped surgeons on staff when teachers can't even get paper supplies?
Volunteers? Because doctors do all their work from the goodness of their hearts. /s
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/116568f786a4305ec463e45935647d7ad8212729863151ecd8c7de098101ef13.jpg
OT - Our favorite mademoiselle is reading Hemant's articles, but alas, not our comments. Which I hope means she will return to us eventually. 🤞
Hoping BHM returns soon. Loss of loved ones is a difficult process.
Hemant writes articles? I thought he just had a comment section. : )
Complex organisms are complex.
Humans love categories though. Sometimes the categories are helpful. Sometimes they are not. Trying to shove eight billion complex organisms with so many factors into A or B isn't helpful except as a crude generalization.
What generally gives the game away though is the attitude and political preferences of people who try to reduce the messiness of humanity to simple binary. They want to discriminate. They want to harm. They want to marginalize people outside of their self-defined norm.
He and Dawkins are proof that one doesn't need religion to be an asshole.
Simple organisms are complex.
Complex organisms are complexer. : )
Complexerer? 🙂
I was going to put an 'i' in there but wanted to keep it simple.
The kkkons have made a loophole for themselves with "Homosexuality is not a sin. Acting on it is." I saw this on the old federalist forums.
Yeah, they got celibate Christian homosexuals doing speaking tours in the Bible belt. I guess it's better than whipping your self on the back with chains.
Also, we simply don't know everything yet. There is a book title I love called the power of knowing what you don't know. We will always blunder when we think we know all there is to know and make decisions accordingly.
It’s rather more the case that many of the comments here demonstrate “that one doesn't need religion to be an asshole.” Congrats!
cannot see what iam typing because some other huge block with another naqme is blocking this.
Who died and appointed you moderator of this forum? My statement was about a huge nameblock obscuring my view of several comments. This is an open forum and this has happened here before.
OT- Here's a development that will surprise absolutely nobody with two or more functioning brain cells to rub together: https://apnews.com/article/trump-maga-immigration-visas-musk-91ab17e141cc9764fb18b8bc862c84dc
Chumpty Dumpty is siding with Muskrat's gigantic piggybank over the rest of his followers' demands to be (somehow) even more racist and xenophobic than he already is. Who'da thunk it, eh? Welcome to the oligarchy, MAGAts! Hope you have your checkbooks handy if you want "your" President to listen to you!
Is there another metaphor we can use for face eating leopards. It has jumped the shark.
Face-eating jumping sharks?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INFavIUmhcE