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Joan the Dork's avatar

To head off the inevitable fuckwits who don't understand the difference-

Suicide as a rational choice in order to end a life which has become nothing but suffering due to terminal illness, and suicide as a result of losing the battle with mental illness, ๐˜ข๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฐ๐˜ต ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ง๐˜ถ๐˜ค๐˜ฌ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ ๐˜ด๐˜ข๐˜ฎ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ. I say this as someone who has been haunted by unwelcome urges towards the latter for well over two decades, and who nevertheless wishes that the former were an option available to everyone who needs it. Life is ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฐ๐˜ต always worth living. Life is ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฐ๐˜ต sacred. People should be able to end it on their own terms when confronted with circumstances which otherwise would see the end of theirs become a fucking horror show- and they should not have that horror show imposed on them by well-meaning but ignorant fuckwits who don't understand the difference between the ๐˜ณ๐˜ข๐˜ต๐˜ช๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ๐˜ข๐˜ญ ๐˜ค๐˜ฉ๐˜ฐ๐˜ช๐˜ค๐˜ฆ to die with dignity and the loss of a battle with intrusive suicidal thoughts.

It. Is. Not. The. Same. Thing.

Get that through your fucking heads.

That is all.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

DM was lamenting the fact that France was backward about the right to die with dignity. I wish she could lived long enough to see it legalized as her grandmother's did with the legalisation of abortion.

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Maltnothops's avatar

"That is all."

Repeat as needed!

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oraxx's avatar

If voluntarily putting an end to intolerable pain and suffering is an affront to God, then that God is someone I would not worship even if it could be demonstrated that he/she/it exists. I have struggled most of my life to see what actual good religion contributes to the world.

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Stephen Brady's avatar

I think it is pretty much inescapable that 'christians' and conservatives are all in for pain and suffering. Witness the old trope 'Suffering is good for the soul'. Hell, if it was good enough for Jeezus, it ought to be good enough for everyone else.... Except Jeezus didn't really die - he just had a really bad weekend. This is probably the most personal decision anyone can make. If you are not the one with the terminal diagnosis, stay the hell out of it.

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oraxx's avatar

Authoritarians, as a rule, do not like seeing people free to make their own decisions.

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Stephen Brady's avatar

Of course not. God forfend.

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Linda Bower's avatar

Yep. They love to see pain, suffering, and torture especially if itโ€™s someone else thatโ€™s delusion-free. Cruelty is always the point with these folks.

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Sarah Longstaff's avatar

Mother Theresa/Teresa. Can't remember how to spell her name. Deprived people of painkillers and other medication and basic hygiene because their suffering made them Christ-like.

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oraxx's avatar

She was a monster. Christopher Hitchens wrote about her. A sadistic old witch. When she needed medical care she flew to the United States to get it.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

It's "Teresa," a.k.a. Agnes Bojaxhiu.

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Len Koz's avatar

AKA the ghoul of Calcutta. Is that more properly Kolkata now?

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Linda Bower's avatar

I didnโ€™t know this. Gross

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Joe King's avatar

๐‘‡โ„Ž๐‘’๐‘ฆ ๐‘Ž๐‘Ÿ๐‘”๐‘ข๐‘’ ๐‘กโ„Ž๐‘Ž๐‘ก ๐‘ก๐‘Ž๐‘˜๐‘–๐‘›๐‘” ๐‘ฆ๐‘œ๐‘ข๐‘Ÿ ๐‘œ๐‘ค๐‘› ๐‘™๐‘–๐‘“๐‘’, ๐‘›๐‘œ ๐‘š๐‘Ž๐‘ก๐‘ก๐‘’๐‘Ÿ ๐‘กโ„Ž๐‘’ ๐‘Ÿ๐‘’๐‘Ž๐‘ ๐‘œ๐‘›, ๐‘–๐‘  ๐‘Ž๐‘› ๐‘Ž๐‘“๐‘“๐‘Ÿ๐‘œ๐‘›๐‘ก ๐‘ก๐‘œ ๐บ๐‘œ๐‘‘ ๐‘Ž๐‘›๐‘‘ ๐‘กโ„Ž๐‘Ž๐‘ก ๐‘ฆ๐‘œ๐‘ข ๐‘š๐‘ข๐‘ ๐‘ก ๐‘™๐‘’๐‘ก ๐‘›๐‘Ž๐‘ก๐‘ข๐‘Ÿ๐‘’ ๐‘Ÿ๐‘ข๐‘› ๐‘–๐‘ก๐‘  ๐‘๐‘œ๐‘ข๐‘Ÿ๐‘ ๐‘’โ€”๐‘’๐‘ฃ๐‘’๐‘› ๐‘คโ„Ž๐‘’๐‘› ๐‘ฆ๐‘œ๐‘ขโ€™๐‘Ÿ๐‘’ ๐‘ก๐‘’๐‘Ÿ๐‘š๐‘–๐‘›๐‘Ž๐‘™๐‘™๐‘ฆ ๐‘–๐‘™๐‘™, ๐‘–๐‘› ๐‘๐‘œ๐‘›๐‘ ๐‘ก๐‘Ž๐‘›๐‘ก ๐‘๐‘Ž๐‘–๐‘›, ๐‘Ž๐‘›๐‘‘ โ„Ž๐‘Ž๐‘ฃ๐‘’ ๐‘›๐‘œ โ„Ž๐‘œ๐‘๐‘’ ๐‘“๐‘œ๐‘Ÿ ๐‘Ÿ๐‘’๐‘๐‘œ๐‘ฃ๐‘’๐‘Ÿ๐‘ฆ.

So why do they object so strenuously when a family wants to disconnect a dying loved one from life support? After all, prolonging life with machines is definitely the opposite of letting nature take its course. Hell, an argument can be made that keeping someone on life support machines is ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ธ๐˜ข๐˜ณ๐˜ต๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ the will of their God. Especially when it is a dead woman being used as an incubator.

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Lynn Veit's avatar

"Especially when it is a dead woman being used as an incubator."

That is Seriously. Fucked. Up.

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Old Man Shadow's avatar

I think many of them are afraid of death.

It is one thing to say one believes in paradise after death when death is far away. It is quite another to be looking death in the face and still believe.

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Lynn Veit's avatar

I was taught by religion that death was nothing we Christians need fear. At the same time, death for me meant I might go to hell. I was never sure if I was doing the right thing, believing hard enough, if all my slip-ups in trying to be the "good faithful Christian" would be enough to save me in the end.

Mind fuckery like that can seriously harm people.

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Donrox's avatar
3dEdited

At least one thing I can say about religion when I was growing up, it was a cheerful, positive expression of faith. Hell was barely mentioned in the atmosphere of "Blessed Assurance", and "Grace that was Greater" than any screw up I might come up with. I was going to youth group when the Doobie Brothers were singing "Jesus is just All Right" on the radio.

P.S. It is still mind fuckery

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Lynn Veit's avatar

It was a positive place for me too, at first, until I was about five, maybe six (?). It was as you described, Blessed Assurance and Jesus Loves the Little Children of the World and all that. I had never even heard about hell, until the minister we had retired and a new hellfire-and-brimstone-breathing dragon arrived on the scene. Suddenly everything did a 180-degree turnaround, and for the first time in my life, church was a terrifying place.

In the intervening years, we seemed to alternate between good-guy pastors who behaved like decent human beings and more of the dragons. But once that hell-fear was planted, it was always there.

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Maltnothops's avatar

They sure dont seem eager to get to heaven.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Sadly, the Catholic Church's attitude is: "Life Uber Alles." Regardless of how unbearable it may become, life is an absolute value to them, and the quality of that life simply isn't worth their notice.

Makes me wonder what they would do if a priest or monsignor or bishop had an inoperable cancer which turned their pain level up to 11. As with Republicans, having something impact them directly has a way of changing points of view.

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Joe King's avatar

That bishop would get a fuckton of morphine so he would feel no pain and if he gets an "accidental" overdose, oh well. His successor will definitely continue the hypocritical stance while pretending that his predecessor did not plan the "accident".

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

They would fly him, by sheer coincidence, in a country where euthanasia is legal and PR their worshippers into believing he died peacefully in his sleep.

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ericc's avatar
3dEdited

It's about control. Remember, the RCC came up with Just War theory to try and reconcile the unreconcilable "turn the other cheek" with the church's desire for temporal power.

So it's more "Life Uber Alles...until we tell you to kill. Then kill. But only when we decide."

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Linda Bower's avatar

It makes me wonder if these religions go away (bye), can we actually make some progress on improving life on earth? Iโ€™d say itโ€™s a step in the right direction.

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Donrox's avatar

I have a lot of experience in palliative care. It is amazing how often a death that has been lingering suddenly happens when the morphine level is increased!

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Joan the Dork's avatar

It's also condemning the patient's family to a lifetime of crushing medical debt. Insurance companies tend to refuse coverage for life support when there's no chance the patient will recover.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

Its fucking nuts to me that religious freaks will fight against this using โ€œlet nature take its courseโ€ but demand a dead woman spend months on artificial life machines to harvest a fetus, calling allowing her to die an abortion. Are we letting nature take its course or are we interfering in death to make sure a doomed fetus suffers?

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

The same freaks will wear glasses when needed, have chemos, and all sort of medical procedures to prolonge their lives.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

They also quite likely support the death penalty. It's hypocrisy all the way down with conservatives.

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Name: lenora good, Guest's avatar

In my State, the person seeking to hasten their death are told they may say NO at any time up to ingestion. Once the drugs are taken, there is no antidote. They are asked, right up until the last, if they wish to continue with the meds. A few say NO, most do not. Death is peaceful and painfree. What an ugly 'god' who demands suffering. Even Mother Theresa was granted the pain killing drugs she denied the poor. But, then, she wasn't poor, was she?

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

No, she wasn't poor. She was a self-involved bitch who got off on the suffering of her patients and received top-quality care when she needed, whereas her charges were lucky if they could get an aspirin.

And now she's supposedly a saint? Yeah, right.

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Crowscage's avatar

They should have named the vicious bitch the patron saint of torturers.

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Claudia's avatar

People like having the option. Even if they don't in the end actually go ahead.

So. let's have the legislation, let's have the safeguards, let's have good hospice care AND have medical care, which does not bankrupt families.

Or in the parallel with abortion, let's have the legislation, let's have some safeguards but also let's have paid parental leave, low-cost childcare, housing and income support payments, so that people can choose having a child.

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Die Anyway's avatar

> "....to take *their own* life."

If the government can stop you then it's not really your own life, is it?

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Jane in NC's avatar

As a native Delawarean, I'm proud of my home state today. The diocese of Wilmington can take a seat and STFU. No organization which has had to pay millions of dollars because of priest sexual abuse of children has any credibility or moral authority to talk about 'innocent lives.' The AMA has a skewed view of its mission if it believes that 'healing' is its only mission. Some people can't be healed, but their suffering can be alleviated. Damn! We don't make our own pets suffer to the bitter end of their lives, because we have a compassionate, humane option of ending their suffering. Why are human animals any less worthy of that compassion and humanity?

Thanks so much to Paul Baumbach for his tireless work on this measure. And thanks to Gov. Meyer and state Democrats for having the backbone and thoughtfulness to see this bill into law.

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Len Koz's avatar

The believers think human animals have souls and will burn for eternity for deciding on when their lives should end. I'm curious, people have decided to commit suicide in dangerous situations by intentionally doing something that will get them killed but will save other people. Do they burn for eternity for their actions?

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Jane in NC's avatar

You make very good points, Len. Souls are another myth from the Big Book of Fairy Tales that the theists use to justify all sorts of cruelty. EG, for hundreds of years the catholics preached an odious doctrine of purgatory where unbaptized babies went because their 'souls' hadn't been dedicated to their 'all-loving' god through baptism. You'd THINK an all-loving god would waive the fine print for babies, but noooo.

Let's not forget that christians' entire religion is centered around a guy who allegedly committed suicide so everyone else could be forgiven and have eternal life. They call that guy a god. Military members, first responders and others do the same every day, and they're celebrated as heroes, rightfully. But someone who has a terminal illness wishing to die with dignity and on their own terms - and let's be honest, save their families hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills? SINNER!!! What a bunch of hypocrites.

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Donrox's avatar

Oh Jane, it is worse than that. They think all saved souls go to Purgatory first to purify them for Heaven.. That is what indulgences buy off time from.

Unbaptized babies go to a special place called "Limbo" for eternity.

And everybody else is going straight to Hell!

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Jane in NC's avatar

You're right, Donrox. Thanks for the correction. I said purgatory when I meant limbo.

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Claudia's avatar

The standard slogan 'if you don't like abortion, then don't have one' fits here as well: 'if you don't like assisted dying then don't do it'

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ericc's avatar
3dEdited

Well the concern has always been "if you don't like assisted dying, then someone does it for you."

But we are 25+ years into it (1997 I think was the first rollout), and that seems to be either a nonproblem or at least a "regular" problem (i.e. something the courts can handle). There's no epidemic of old people being killed off by their young relatives or inheritors. So as you say in an earlier post, with safeguards in place the potential for abuse seems to be managed.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Congratulations to Delaware's Congresspeople, Senators, and Governor who allowed compassion and care to be signed into a law.

A similar bill just cleared l'Assemblรฉe Nationale, the main hurdle will be the Senate and the Presidential elections in 2027. I cross my fingers for it to be published in the Journal Officiel* before that year.

"Andย although I understand not everyone shares my views, I am fundamentally and morally opposed to state law enabling someone, even under tragic and painful circumstances, to take their own life."

And ? When you swore your oath, where in your state Constitution was it written you had the right to impose your religion on your voters ?

"The Diocese of Wilmington, on the side of prolonging the suffering,ย issued a statementย at the time saying โ€œthere is no justification to take an innocent life.โ€

Savita Halappanavar, Amber Thurman, Porsha Ngumezi, Josseli Barnica. All these innocent women and countless others were murdered in the name of a religious dogma mainly professed by cis men who have 0 risk of a miscarriage in their lives. What is your justification ?

* Once promulgated by the President, a law is inactive as long as it's not published officially.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

"When you swore your oath, where in your state Constitution was it written you had the right to impose your religion on your voters ?"

โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘โ†‘

Freaking THIS!!!!!

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Passage of this bill into law has clearly been an uphill battle, but its sponsors stuck with it, even through former Governor Carney's ill-considered veto, and now IT IS LAW. Personally, I don't know what it feels like to be in such pain that ending my life would be the only viable recourse, but it is clear that there are a number of people out there for whom that is precisely the case. For them, this is RELIEF, and I am glad that they have it, naysayers and religious absolutists notwithstanding.

Congratulations, Delaware. You just became a much more humane state.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

"...no compassion, no hope and no help for vulnerable members of our society"

Sounds like a typical GQP stance on pretty much everything, eh Rethuglikkkans? Project much?

I'm proud that my state has one of these laws

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NOGODZ20's avatar

To the Diocese of Wilmington...

Oh, NOW you bleat about innocent life? If the Catholic Church truly cared one whit about that they might not have a massive, nearly two decades-long child sexual abuse epidemic on their filthy hands.

Hypocrites. First remove the planks/logs/beams from your own eyes.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

The Catholic Church has a complete history of determining who gets to be called innocent and killing those they deem guilty, mostly anyone who doesnโ€™t convert to their religion, or just doesnโ€™t blindly obey them. The RCC has no place making moral judgments, and yet they are setup only to make moral judgments. Itโ€™s a serious injustice of the world that the religions of the world get to set the standard of morality not based on their own horrific actions.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

No member of the Catholic clergy has any standing to judge anyone else for ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜บ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ until they take accountability for the blood-soaked history of their own damned Church.

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John Smith's avatar

The Christian clergy can go suck jeezyboyโ€™s dead dick. Humans are not godโ€™s property, we get to decide how to make our lives rich and rewarding. That includes the right to choose when and how to end our lives to keep ourselves from suffering needlessly.

If fucking god (if it existed) doesnโ€™t like my life choices, it can get its goddamm fucking lazy ass off that golden celestial throne and come down here to tell me itself. It could send that even more useless, lazy good for nothing bastard son of his to tell me. Donโ€™t send the holy pigeon for I would shoot it and feed it to the neighbourโ€™s cat.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Golden celestial throne?

https://ibb.co/TDb57YSN

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Maltnothops's avatar

โ€œ planks/logs/beams โ€

Itโ€™s a fukken forest.

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Crowscage's avatar

Having someone you love beg you to end their pain over and over and you can do nothing is obscene. Having to listen to sanctimonious pricks get off on that pain is evil.

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Jane in NC's avatar

To paraphrase Epicurus:

โ€œIs God willing to prevent suffering, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh suffering?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

All the god botherers can FO with their nonsense.

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Old Man Shadow's avatar

I have loved deeply every animal companion I have been... well, blessed to share a part of my life with.

When it is time, and there is no hope, only pain ahead, I have held each one as a vet humanely ended their lives.

I cannot imagine it is more moral to show mercy and compassion to my cats and dogs than to other human beings.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

The Ghoul of Kolkata was very much into suffering. She described it as "a kiss of Jesus."

And as we all know, Teresa wanted no part of Jesus' lips on her when it came to HER suffering. Nope, for her it was flying first class to both Europe and the United States to receive the finest medical care possible.

She actually finally did a service to humanity. She died.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Damn, I should have scrolled before posting. Others have beaten me to it on the woman who should've been cannonized instead of canonized.

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Lynn Veit's avatar

Well said. I put Berlusconi in the same category.

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dammit barry's avatar

Proper use is "Cannonaded?'

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Wanted the two to sound as close as possible. Also, it's something of a pun and not an attempt at accuracy. :)

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