They have this idea that their centuries out of date mindset is the Absolute Truth, and it is persecution if they aren't allowed to impose that on the rest of us with the full might of the state. That's why they refuse to recognize the constitutional principle of separation of church and state, no matter how many times you try to explain it to them.
It's an age-old story of being able to justify anything in the name of religion. Other schools should refuse to schedule Mid Vermont Christian School. I can't imagine why anyone would be required to play them. That said, it's a big ask to expect anyone in today's America to act out of principle.
I can't imagine the court allowing a blanket "don't schedule them" after this ruling; the whole point of the ruling is to say you can't exclude them from participating in the league.
But if you're talking about the coaches getting together at the start of the season and deciding "we won't have A play B because that'll be an auto-forfeit, instead we'll have A play C and B play D a second time", well I guess that's okay...in theory. In parctice, it presents a scheduling hassle to ensure all the schools get one game a week (or whatever) and they all end up with the same number of games.
After I googled it, I don't understand what are conference and non conference games, except it's college level, when the Vermont league in the article is about high schools.
At the high school level, a "conference" usually consists of schools in geographical proximity (and possibly if similar size). They all play each other at least once and maybe more often per season. Those are "conference" games. At the end of the season, one of two things usually happens. Either the teams with the best records move on to more games against the best teams from other conferences with the goal of advancing to state championship games. Alternatively, the confence has a tournament to determine which teams will move on. In the playoffs the teams with the best conference records play their first games against the teams with the worst conference records.
Non-conference games are games against schools not in your conference. Often they might be good teams and your coach is trying to give the players a chance to try harder.
Here we go again. The basic principle applied here is that a mythical belief system, without evidential support, actually with strong evidence against, is given power over real live humans and their rules against discrimination. This is just one more example of Christopher Hitchens subtitle “How Religion Poisons Everything”, was accurate. It is being used to destroy our anti discrimination laws, which took decades to develop and implement.
Frankly. I do find it odd that a private school is in a conference with public schools. I attribute that to this being Vermont, which is small and low population. There just might not be a lot of private schools around and/or the public schools find it convenient to avoid driving farther, especially in snowy winter.
Believers are told to obey all earthly laws and authorities. Says so in Romans 13.
So why can't they do what they are told by their own? Why do they REFUSE to do what they are told? Even their own Jesus in the gospel of Luke asked why his followers called him Lord but wouldn't do what he said?
How can they have 'deeply held religious beliefs' about Trans people when they are never mentioned in the bible? If I somehow missed that, just show me chapter and verse. I could kinda, sorta see it if they were arguing that anyone with Y chromosomes in their muscles is inherently stronger and faster than someone who only has X chromosomes, but to my knowledge, unless the Russians did it and buried the report, it has never been studied. (And, as someone who was an academic physician for a while, I could design the study.) I suspect, that their fear and loathing of Trans people comes down to the fact that they don't want anyone with Y chromosomes seeing their little darlings in the showers. After all, it would destroy their purity.
Or intersex (the term ‘hermaphrodite’ is now considered outdated, medically inaccurate and even derogatory (it’s widely considered by the intersex community to be offensive and stigmatizing).
I'm not sure how it's stigmatizing, but it is definitely inaccurate. Intersex people only have *one* set of genitals, they just don't look quite male or female. A mythical hermaphrodite was supposed to have two sets of genitals, one male, one female. But I do my best not to call anyone by a label they're not comfortable with, regardless.
They think they're the ones who are supposed to make all the earthly laws, so any laws that they don't agree with somehow don't count. It's the Free Exercise Clause absolutism.
OT: We lost another great actor / director / activist earlier this morning: Robert Redford. All the President's Men, Jeremiah Johnson, The Natural, and too many others to mention. Hell, I even remember an impossibly young Redford in an episode of The Twilight Zone! The man wasn't just talented; HE GAVE A DAMN, never mind making Sundance a vital and essential place for filmmakers.
Where's the claim that African-Americans have an unfair advantage in men's basketball and should be banned. 70% of NBA players come from 13% of the population.
No judge would accept this argument, but LGBTQ2SIA discrimination is perfectly fine, especially because we choose to be discriminated against, have a higher rate of youth homelessness and suicide. Teenagers are choosing these things to be cool or edgy. Not to mention reducing the available dating pool from at least 45% to 5% of people.
Hadesdamn these assholes to the depths of Tartarus.
He's carefully avoided Interracial marriage when listing all the other decisions decided on the same basic, but unstated right that he wants to overturn, so I don't think he would. But I agree if anyone would it's him.
I really don’t think so. Too bad optics for no chance to win the decision. Also, I think it would still lead to a high chance of Impeachment. It would certainly put them in the crosshairs of a large number of Congresscritters.
Notice how all these types of cases are rung up the ladder until they get to an appeals court where the judge was installed by either Trump or Bush? Rubber stamper christian nationalists put in place over the course of a couple of decades.
Well, the courts have ruled that the religious schools don’t have to follow the rules of the athletic program they participate in. So, by that logic, the basketball team could refute any traveling fouls because their lord and savior walked on water. Or they could claim their personal fouls are just blessings and are null. Let’s also extend that to the academic events the school was whining about. The science fairs (or whatever, you know what I mean) should all be won because “god did it” is the only acceptable answer for all our scientific questions.
The program didn’t interfere in the school’s practice of their religion, they only made it easier for the school to follow its beliefs. Now the school doesn’t have to worry about being exposed to the wrong kind of children.
Anyway, I hope the school loses students over this even if they win the case. Parents should not want this type of hatred taught to their children. But there are enough that do to keep them afloat for a while yet.
Given the number of "look, I baked cookies/cake/something...and you can have one!" entries in my kid's middle school science fair, I'd be okay with a "God did it" project. It's not trying to bribe the judges, so it's one ethical step up there. And it creates a forum in which judges and other visitors can question the kid about how the miracle works. Fundies wanting to participate in science but doing it badly, is infinitely better than them deciding to stay away from science because it challenges their beliefs.
But they would be expecting to win the competition too. They already can enter ridiculous religious nonsense, they just don’t get very far with it. But now, since the rules don’t apply to them, they ought to move forward and be recognized, not recognizing them is discriminatory in their book.
Until we get court cases where the religious kid's parents sue because their kid's "god did it" diorama was discriminated against by that awful science teacher.
Discriminated how? Letting them participate and then having other participants, judges, students, parents etc. ask them questions about their poster is literally exactly what the event is about.
The projects must posit a testable hypothesis then perform a test of it. If they want to test a faith claim, let them. If they come up with confirming evidence, let them. If they came up with a good idea and a good test but the results are wrong, sure give them a mediocre prize. I have seen science fair results that were blatantly wrong and yet taught the kid a lot and I definitely prefer having the religious kid think up the experiment, carry it out, and present the results than avoid participating because they don't want their beliefs challenged.
Critical thinking is a marathon, not a sprint. Let them use the scientific process (in 'mini' form) and get their wrong result as a tween. Most of the kids who do that and like it will grow up to use the process over and over again to get the right result instead. It's why higher education correlates with less belief.
Are you trying to make baby Jesus cry? You suggest a perfectly reasonable situation. What about the religious school's behavior in this story leads you to believe they would act reasonably in a reasonable situation?
We can't draw a pattern of religious discrimination out of a sample of 1. But I think it's fairly safe to expect that VPA would likely expel a non-religious school for doing the same thing, and would not expel a religious school who wasn't objecting. So clearly, this is not about religion it's just about adherence to the association's trans policies.
Well, now that's out. I guess plan B is that they simply forfeit games? What a scheduling pain.
Thinking about how to give the other teams their full roster of games, maybe switch the league to a combination format (4-team round robin, followed by single elimination tournament). If MVCS wants to forfeit during either part, it doesn't impact the other teams' ability to proceed or for the league to determine a winner.
Why comply with a corrupt and illegal admin? The Dems will comply while the Rs put more and more and more Fascist people in high places. We’re our own worst enemy.
This will lead to what all this trans panic bullshit is leading to, more violence on trans people and cis women and girls. Look at what happened during the Olympics recently. A cis woman was accused of being trans just to foment more hate and she faced violence. Cis women just trying to pee have been accosted while in restrooms and there are laws being written to allow adults to inspect genitalia. All under the guise of protecting women’s sports from men, aka fairness and safety.
Bigotry against one group makes all groups less safe. And since there is a deep seated hatred for women, one of the fruits of which is the trans bigotry (it is its own problem as much as it is a part of the other. I am and have been someone who has accepted trans women as women and trans men as men, their fight is my fight.) this decision is a threat to all women and makes women much less safe. They know this, they don’t care because they hate us too. The coach saying he’s teaching his daughter whatever convictions are important is wrong, what he is teaching his daughters that he considers them less than men, less human, and less deserving. But that is a core component of Christianity.
Ah yes, Christians claiming persecution because they can't persecute others.
Beat me to it as I was typing it. Was going to say:
"We want to persecute people. Why are you persecuting us?"
"We want to persecute people. Why are you persecuting us?"
DARVO in action (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO)
Like clockwork.
Once again, it's a case of people conflating their wants with their rights. They're always being persecuted, and it's always someone else's fault.
They have this idea that their centuries out of date mindset is the Absolute Truth, and it is persecution if they aren't allowed to impose that on the rest of us with the full might of the state. That's why they refuse to recognize the constitutional principle of separation of church and state, no matter how many times you try to explain it to them.
The Xtians have been very loyal to their lies. Thousands of years of fantasy, all tied up in a neat little bow for those that refuse reality.
It's an age-old story of being able to justify anything in the name of religion. Other schools should refuse to schedule Mid Vermont Christian School. I can't imagine why anyone would be required to play them. That said, it's a big ask to expect anyone in today's America to act out of principle.
The forfeiting team loose. Another penalty for girls from public schools who may need a scholarship to go to college.
I'm talking about going forward, and not scheduling this school in the future.
I can't imagine the court allowing a blanket "don't schedule them" after this ruling; the whole point of the ruling is to say you can't exclude them from participating in the league.
But if you're talking about the coaches getting together at the start of the season and deciding "we won't have A play B because that'll be an auto-forfeit, instead we'll have A play C and B play D a second time", well I guess that's okay...in theory. In parctice, it presents a scheduling hassle to ensure all the schools get one game a week (or whatever) and they all end up with the same number of games.
Why should we care what "court" says? They don't.
It's the same. I don't think the league rules allow for refusing to schedule another school.
It would probably come down to the arrangements in the conference. If it was a non-conference game they could probably not schedule them.
After I googled it, I don't understand what are conference and non conference games, except it's college level, when the Vermont league in the article is about high schools.
At the high school level, a "conference" usually consists of schools in geographical proximity (and possibly if similar size). They all play each other at least once and maybe more often per season. Those are "conference" games. At the end of the season, one of two things usually happens. Either the teams with the best records move on to more games against the best teams from other conferences with the goal of advancing to state championship games. Alternatively, the confence has a tournament to determine which teams will move on. In the playoffs the teams with the best conference records play their first games against the teams with the worst conference records.
Non-conference games are games against schools not in your conference. Often they might be good teams and your coach is trying to give the players a chance to try harder.
Here we go again. The basic principle applied here is that a mythical belief system, without evidential support, actually with strong evidence against, is given power over real live humans and their rules against discrimination. This is just one more example of Christopher Hitchens subtitle “How Religion Poisons Everything”, was accurate. It is being used to destroy our anti discrimination laws, which took decades to develop and implement.
I want to know what a private school does in a public schools league, but I guess I am too French.
"In our current legal system, the rights of trans kids—and by extension, all LGBTQ people—are secondary to the demands of religious conservatives."
What's next ? Forfeiting any time a bigoted school had to play against a team from a school that allow :
- A comprehensive sex education
- Co-ed
- Women teachers
Welcome to Afghanistan.
BIPOC students.
Frankly. I do find it odd that a private school is in a conference with public schools. I attribute that to this being Vermont, which is small and low population. There just might not be a lot of private schools around and/or the public schools find it convenient to avoid driving farther, especially in snowy winter.
In other words: refusing to be discriminated is a form of discrimination.
Well, they also think fighting racism mean you're racist, so this is kinda on the nose.
Believers are told to obey all earthly laws and authorities. Says so in Romans 13.
So why can't they do what they are told by their own? Why do they REFUSE to do what they are told? Even their own Jesus in the gospel of Luke asked why his followers called him Lord but wouldn't do what he said?
How can they have 'deeply held religious beliefs' about Trans people when they are never mentioned in the bible? If I somehow missed that, just show me chapter and verse. I could kinda, sorta see it if they were arguing that anyone with Y chromosomes in their muscles is inherently stronger and faster than someone who only has X chromosomes, but to my knowledge, unless the Russians did it and buried the report, it has never been studied. (And, as someone who was an academic physician for a while, I could design the study.) I suspect, that their fear and loathing of Trans people comes down to the fact that they don't want anyone with Y chromosomes seeing their little darlings in the showers. After all, it would destroy their purity.
This is the verse they use to justify their bigotry.
Genesis 1:27 KJV
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And conveniently ignoring the 𝔖𝔢𝔠𝔬𝔫𝔡 𝔊𝔯𝔢𝔞𝔱𝔢𝔰𝔱 ℭ𝔬𝔪𝔪𝔞𝔫𝔡𝔪𝔢𝔫𝔱, according to the guy whose teachings they are supposed to follow.
Matthew 22:37-40 KJV
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
If "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.", does that mean their god is intersex?
Or intersex (the term ‘hermaphrodite’ is now considered outdated, medically inaccurate and even derogatory (it’s widely considered by the intersex community to be offensive and stigmatizing).
I'm not sure how it's stigmatizing, but it is definitely inaccurate. Intersex people only have *one* set of genitals, they just don't look quite male or female. A mythical hermaphrodite was supposed to have two sets of genitals, one male, one female. But I do my best not to call anyone by a label they're not comfortable with, regardless.
Thanks for the knowledge. Comment updated.
Yes. The true image of gawd: 🐌
It's still underpants gnome logic.
1. Genesis points out 'some folks have male bits and other have female bits'
2. ...
3. 20th century western sex-differentiated sporting and bathroom rules!
You do not have to reject 1 to consider modifying 3.
They think they're the ones who are supposed to make all the earthly laws, so any laws that they don't agree with somehow don't count. It's the Free Exercise Clause absolutism.
More lawyers dancing around the filing cabinet...
OT: We lost another great actor / director / activist earlier this morning: Robert Redford. All the President's Men, Jeremiah Johnson, The Natural, and too many others to mention. Hell, I even remember an impossibly young Redford in an episode of The Twilight Zone! The man wasn't just talented; HE GAVE A DAMN, never mind making Sundance a vital and essential place for filmmakers.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/16/movies/robert-redford-dead.html?unlocked_article_code=1.mU8.N62q.3qbQb6ryugji&smid=url-share
DM loved his movies.
Where's the claim that African-Americans have an unfair advantage in men's basketball and should be banned. 70% of NBA players come from 13% of the population.
No judge would accept this argument, but LGBTQ2SIA discrimination is perfectly fine, especially because we choose to be discriminated against, have a higher rate of youth homelessness and suicide. Teenagers are choosing these things to be cool or edgy. Not to mention reducing the available dating pool from at least 45% to 5% of people.
Hadesdamn these assholes to the depths of Tartarus.
Thomas might.
He's carefully avoided Interracial marriage when listing all the other decisions decided on the same basic, but unstated right that he wants to overturn, so I don't think he would. But I agree if anyone would it's him.
"No judge would accept this argument"
Not even judges who thought that black people were "Children of Ham"?
I really don’t think so. Too bad optics for no chance to win the decision. Also, I think it would still lead to a high chance of Impeachment. It would certainly put them in the crosshairs of a large number of Congresscritters.
There are judges with the same level of knowledge of the law as cannon fodder.
Notice how all these types of cases are rung up the ladder until they get to an appeals court where the judge was installed by either Trump or Bush? Rubber stamper christian nationalists put in place over the course of a couple of decades.
Well, the courts have ruled that the religious schools don’t have to follow the rules of the athletic program they participate in. So, by that logic, the basketball team could refute any traveling fouls because their lord and savior walked on water. Or they could claim their personal fouls are just blessings and are null. Let’s also extend that to the academic events the school was whining about. The science fairs (or whatever, you know what I mean) should all be won because “god did it” is the only acceptable answer for all our scientific questions.
The program didn’t interfere in the school’s practice of their religion, they only made it easier for the school to follow its beliefs. Now the school doesn’t have to worry about being exposed to the wrong kind of children.
Anyway, I hope the school loses students over this even if they win the case. Parents should not want this type of hatred taught to their children. But there are enough that do to keep them afloat for a while yet.
Given the number of "look, I baked cookies/cake/something...and you can have one!" entries in my kid's middle school science fair, I'd be okay with a "God did it" project. It's not trying to bribe the judges, so it's one ethical step up there. And it creates a forum in which judges and other visitors can question the kid about how the miracle works. Fundies wanting to participate in science but doing it badly, is infinitely better than them deciding to stay away from science because it challenges their beliefs.
But they would be expecting to win the competition too. They already can enter ridiculous religious nonsense, they just don’t get very far with it. But now, since the rules don’t apply to them, they ought to move forward and be recognized, not recognizing them is discriminatory in their book.
Until we get court cases where the religious kid's parents sue because their kid's "god did it" diorama was discriminated against by that awful science teacher.
Discriminated how? Letting them participate and then having other participants, judges, students, parents etc. ask them questions about their poster is literally exactly what the event is about.
When they don't win they will claim it is because they are discriminated against.
The projects must posit a testable hypothesis then perform a test of it. If they want to test a faith claim, let them. If they come up with confirming evidence, let them. If they came up with a good idea and a good test but the results are wrong, sure give them a mediocre prize. I have seen science fair results that were blatantly wrong and yet taught the kid a lot and I definitely prefer having the religious kid think up the experiment, carry it out, and present the results than avoid participating because they don't want their beliefs challenged.
Critical thinking is a marathon, not a sprint. Let them use the scientific process (in 'mini' form) and get their wrong result as a tween. Most of the kids who do that and like it will grow up to use the process over and over again to get the right result instead. It's why higher education correlates with less belief.
Are you trying to make baby Jesus cry? You suggest a perfectly reasonable situation. What about the religious school's behavior in this story leads you to believe they would act reasonably in a reasonable situation?
The same arguments were used a century ago with black athletes instead of trans athletes.
And more recently, gay athletes.
I like to argue that every sports record from before integration needs an asterisk because some of the best athletes weren't permitted to play.
You batted . 400? Yeah, but some of those hits were against mediocre whites instead of major league quality black pitchers. Etc
𝑐𝑙𝑎𝑖𝑚𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑒 𝑣𝑖𝑜𝑙𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙’𝑠 𝐹𝑖𝑟𝑠𝑡 𝐴𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑟𝑖𝑔ℎ𝑡𝑠 “𝑏𝑦 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑚 𝑓𝑟𝑜𝑚 𝑝𝑟𝑎𝑐𝑡𝑖𝑐𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑖𝑟 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑓𝑠 𝑎𝑏𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝑠𝑒𝑥𝑢𝑎𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑔𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟.”
That's bullflop. You can religiously believe a trans woman is a man all you want; the VT rule simply says they may play on the team.
𝑇ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑉𝑃𝐴 ℎ𝑎𝑠 𝑜𝑛𝑙𝑦 𝑎𝑝𝑝𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑑 𝑖𝑡𝑠 𝑛𝑒𝑤𝑓𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑑 𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑓𝑒𝑖𝑡𝑢𝑟𝑒-𝑗𝑢𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑓𝑖𝑒𝑠-𝑒𝑥𝑝𝑢𝑙𝑠𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑝𝑜𝑙𝑖𝑐𝑦 𝑡𝑜 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑐𝑎𝑛𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑝𝑒𝑡𝑒 𝑎𝑔𝑎𝑖𝑛𝑠𝑡 𝑚𝑎𝑙𝑒𝑠 𝑤ℎ𝑜 𝑖𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑓𝑦 𝑎𝑠 𝑓𝑒𝑚𝑎𝑙𝑒
We can't draw a pattern of religious discrimination out of a sample of 1. But I think it's fairly safe to expect that VPA would likely expel a non-religious school for doing the same thing, and would not expel a religious school who wasn't objecting. So clearly, this is not about religion it's just about adherence to the association's trans policies.
𝐼𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛 𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙 𝑝𝑙𝑎𝑛𝑛𝑒𝑑 𝑡𝑜 𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑓𝑒𝑖𝑡 𝑔𝑎𝑚𝑒𝑠 𝑎𝑔𝑎𝑖𝑛𝑠𝑡 𝑡𝑒𝑎𝑚𝑠 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑡𝑟𝑎𝑛𝑠 𝑎𝑡ℎ𝑙𝑒𝑡𝑒𝑠, 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑉𝑃𝐴 ℎ𝑎𝑑 𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑦 𝑟𝑖𝑔ℎ𝑡 𝑡𝑜 𝑘𝑖𝑐𝑘 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑚 𝑜𝑢𝑡.
Well, now that's out. I guess plan B is that they simply forfeit games? What a scheduling pain.
Thinking about how to give the other teams their full roster of games, maybe switch the league to a combination format (4-team round robin, followed by single elimination tournament). If MVCS wants to forfeit during either part, it doesn't impact the other teams' ability to proceed or for the league to determine a winner.
Why comply with a corrupt and illegal admin? The Dems will comply while the Rs put more and more and more Fascist people in high places. We’re our own worst enemy.
This will lead to what all this trans panic bullshit is leading to, more violence on trans people and cis women and girls. Look at what happened during the Olympics recently. A cis woman was accused of being trans just to foment more hate and she faced violence. Cis women just trying to pee have been accosted while in restrooms and there are laws being written to allow adults to inspect genitalia. All under the guise of protecting women’s sports from men, aka fairness and safety.
Bigotry against one group makes all groups less safe. And since there is a deep seated hatred for women, one of the fruits of which is the trans bigotry (it is its own problem as much as it is a part of the other. I am and have been someone who has accepted trans women as women and trans men as men, their fight is my fight.) this decision is a threat to all women and makes women much less safe. They know this, they don’t care because they hate us too. The coach saying he’s teaching his daughter whatever convictions are important is wrong, what he is teaching his daughters that he considers them less than men, less human, and less deserving. But that is a core component of Christianity.