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Alverant's avatar

Ah yes, Christians claiming persecution because they can't persecute others.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Beat me to it as I was typing it. Was going to say:

"We want to persecute people. Why are you persecuting us?"

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Kukaan Ei Missään's avatar

"We want to persecute people. Why are you persecuting us?"

DARVO in action (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO)

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Maltnothops's avatar

Like clockwork.

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Matri's avatar

We are denying their religious right to deny other people basic human rights.

And I’m okay with that.

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Ethereal Fairy's avatar

A thing as old as religion itself.

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Eric's avatar

Once again, it's a case of people conflating their wants with their rights. They're always being persecuted, and it's always someone else's fault.

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Joe King's avatar

They have this idea that their centuries out of date mindset is the Absolute Truth, and it is persecution if they aren't allowed to impose that on the rest of us with the full might of the state. That's why they refuse to recognize the constitutional principle of separation of church and state, no matter how many times you try to explain it to them.

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Walt Svirsky's avatar

The Xtians have been very loyal to their lies. Thousands of years of fantasy, all tied up in a neat little bow for those that refuse reality.

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oraxx's avatar

It's an age-old story of being able to justify anything in the name of religion. Other schools should refuse to schedule Mid Vermont Christian School. I can't imagine why anyone would be required to play them. That said, it's a big ask to expect anyone in today's America to act out of principle.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

The forfeiting team loose. Another penalty for girls from public schools who may need a scholarship to go to college.

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oraxx's avatar

I'm talking about going forward, and not scheduling this school in the future.

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ericc's avatar

I can't imagine the court allowing a blanket "don't schedule them" after this ruling; the whole point of the ruling is to say you can't exclude them from participating in the league.

But if you're talking about the coaches getting together at the start of the season and deciding "we won't have A play B because that'll be an auto-forfeit, instead we'll have A play C and B play D a second time", well I guess that's okay...in theory. In parctice, it presents a scheduling hassle to ensure all the schools get one game a week (or whatever) and they all end up with the same number of games.

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Runfastandwin's avatar

Why should we care what "court" says? They don't.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

It's the same. I don't think the league rules allow for refusing to schedule another school.

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oraxx's avatar

It would probably come down to the arrangements in the conference. If it was a non-conference game they could probably not schedule them.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

After I googled it, I don't understand what are conference and non conference games, except it's college level, when the Vermont league in the article is about high schools.

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Maltnothops's avatar

At the high school level, a "conference" usually consists of schools in geographical proximity (and possibly if similar size). They all play each other at least once and maybe more often per season. Those are "conference" games. At the end of the season, one of two things usually happens. Either the teams with the best records move on to more games against the best teams from other conferences with the goal of advancing to state championship games. Alternatively, the confence has a tournament to determine which teams will move on. In the playoffs the teams with the best conference records play their first games against the teams with the worst conference records.

Non-conference games are games against schools not in your conference. Often they might be good teams and your coach is trying to give the players a chance to try harder.

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Whitney's avatar

Hmm. Actually, I wonder if it might be possible for every other school in the 'conference' to have a trans athlete who wanted to play?

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

OT: We lost another great actor / director / activist earlier this morning: Robert Redford. All the President's Men, Jeremiah Johnson, The Natural, and too many others to mention. Hell, I even remember an impossibly young Redford in an episode of The Twilight Zone! The man wasn't just talented; HE GAVE A DAMN, never mind making Sundance a vital and essential place for filmmakers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/16/movies/robert-redford-dead.html?unlocked_article_code=1.mU8.N62q.3qbQb6ryugji&smid=url-share

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Wasn't he the lead in 3 days of the Condor? I remember that with fondness although when I showed it to my son he thought it was too slow. Then he thought the same about the 2nd alien movie.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

If you want to show him what slow is, show him Sean Connery's the 𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑅𝑢𝑠𝑠𝑖𝑎 𝐻𝑜𝑢𝑠𝑒. Several of my friends fell asleep during it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Russia_House_(film)

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Maltnothops's avatar

He was not the lead in Condor, which I know for a fact because I made that same mistake when I was younger. A different handsome young blonde man who easily picked up women. I loved Condor. Especially the surprise ending. I’ve always meant to read the book to see if there were more clues as to how that happened. The movie just presents it w/o explanation.

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Funny .......... I don't remember doing it. :)

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phelpsmediation's avatar

You forgot some of his best movies, Butch Cassidy etc, The Sting, The way were. He was a great actor and human.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

DM loved his movies.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I want to know what a private school does in a public schools league, but I guess I am too French.

"In our current legal system, the rights of trans kids—and by extension, all LGBTQ people—are secondary to the demands of religious conservatives."

What's next ? Forfeiting any time a bigoted school had to play against a team from a school that allow :

- A comprehensive sex education

- Co-ed

- Women teachers

Welcome to Afghanistan.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

BIPOC students.

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Maltnothops's avatar

Frankly. I do find it odd that a private school is in a conference with public schools. I attribute that to this being Vermont, which is small and low population. There just might not be a lot of private schools around and/or the public schools find it convenient to avoid driving farther, especially in snowy winter.

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Hannah's avatar

I live in a large Metro area. Seattle. At the HS level the big xitian schools play in the same league as public schools. I dunno what the small xitian schools do because I don't care.

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Maltnothops's avatar

Oh, that’s interesting — about the public and Christian schools being in the same conferences even in a large metro area. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe different reasons.

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Hannah's avatar

I don't know. There are two catlick schools that play with public schools. It seems to be a tier that my kids were never a part of. I'm too lazy to look it up.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Believers are told to obey all earthly laws and authorities. Says so in Romans 13.

So why can't they do what they are told by their own? Why do they REFUSE to do what they are told? Even their own Jesus in the gospel of Luke asked why his followers called him Lord but wouldn't do what he said?

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Stephen Brady's avatar

How can they have 'deeply held religious beliefs' about Trans people when they are never mentioned in the bible? If I somehow missed that, just show me chapter and verse. I could kinda, sorta see it if they were arguing that anyone with Y chromosomes in their muscles is inherently stronger and faster than someone who only has X chromosomes, but to my knowledge, unless the Russians did it and buried the report, it has never been studied. (And, as someone who was an academic physician for a while, I could design the study.) I suspect, that their fear and loathing of Trans people comes down to the fact that they don't want anyone with Y chromosomes seeing their little darlings in the showers. After all, it would destroy their purity.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

This is the verse they use to justify their bigotry.

Genesis 1:27 KJV

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And conveniently ignoring the 𝔖𝔢𝔠𝔬𝔫𝔡 𝔊𝔯𝔢𝔞𝔱𝔢𝔰𝔱 ℭ𝔬𝔪𝔪𝔞𝔫𝔡𝔪𝔢𝔫𝔱, according to the guy whose teachings they are supposed to follow.

Matthew 22:37-40 KJV

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

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Len Koz's avatar

If "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.", does that mean their god is intersex?

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Or intersex (the term ‘hermaphrodite’ is now considered outdated, medically inaccurate and even derogatory (it’s widely considered by the intersex community to be offensive and stigmatizing).

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cdbunch's avatar

I'm not sure how it's stigmatizing, but it is definitely inaccurate. Intersex people only have *one* set of genitals, they just don't look quite male or female. A mythical hermaphrodite was supposed to have two sets of genitals, one male, one female. But I do my best not to call anyone by a label they're not comfortable with, regardless.

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Len Koz's avatar

Thanks for the knowledge. Comment updated.

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Stephen Brady's avatar

From the 30s through the 60s babies born of indeterminate sex were routinely surgically relieved of their external genitalia and raised as female. There is a huge denial of sexual polymorphism in christian circles. Problem is none of that matters to brain wiring.

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Donrox's avatar

I claim androgyny. I hope that offends no one.

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Maltnothops's avatar

No one here except the occasional troll.

None of my business and you can say so without offending me: IIRC, you were a minister. Did you hide your androgyny then. My father was LCMS clergy. I cannot imagine any minister in that Christian backwater being employable if there was a hint of androgyny about them.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Yes. The true image of gawd: 🐌

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ericc's avatar

It's still underpants gnome logic.

1. Genesis points out 'some folks have male bits and other have female bits'

2. ...

3. 20th century western sex-differentiated sporting and bathroom rules!

You do not have to reject 1 to consider modifying 3.

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Joe King's avatar

They think they're the ones who are supposed to make all the earthly laws, so any laws that they don't agree with somehow don't count. It's the Free Exercise Clause absolutism.

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Kay-El's avatar

🎶 How do you solve a problem like Christian bigots

How do you teach those clowns to stop the hate?

How do you find any words that will sink in?

I’m sorry, but it’s 2,000 years too late 🎶

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Mr.E's avatar

B.B. King would be 100 year old today.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

June Lockhart turned 100 in (appropriately) June.

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Daniel Rotter's avatar

Eva Marie Saint turned 101 the following month.

Maybe that waterfront had some good anti-aging chemicals.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

A lovely woman, and contributed one episode to Babylon 5, along with some SIGNIFICANT hardware which would figure into the end of Season 4!

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NOGODZ20's avatar

"The Quality of Mercy," you mean? She appeared with Bill Mumy as Lennier.

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Daniel Rotter's avatar

Was memorable as the title character in The Alfred Hitchcock Hour episode "The Second Wife."

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I don't know his birth day date but DM' stepfather is 97 this year. He is still in good health for his age, he may be able to make it.

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcbPoKpOktE

I've been out walking otherwise I would have posted this sooner.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I will watch later.

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

My grandmother died aged 99 – always thought it was a bit of a pity she never reached her century. Although to be fair it's a reasonably arbitrary number. Doesn't stop me aiming to try to reach it myself mind.

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Matri's avatar

My paternal grandfather died at 105. At least, that’s what he says his age is.

The city records say he’s that age, because that’s what he told them when they asked him, because his records got lost a while back and they asked him for his age to get their records back in shape.

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Maltnothops's avatar

I had a great aunt who lived to 108. We attributed that her never having children. She was a crusty thing even in her 50s.

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Mr.E's avatar

she is still alive. good for her

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Fortunately, I got to see him in Chicago.

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Never saw BB King, don't think he made it to NZ. But I did see Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee very many years ago – they are probably both dead by now I guess.

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avis piscivorus's avatar

No need to guess:

Sonny Terry (October 24, 1911 – March 11, 1986)

Brownie McGhee (November 30, 1915 – February 16, 1996)

- - source wikipedia

I did also some research on youtube. Thank you for making me discover their wonderfull music.

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larry parker's avatar

He'll never make it.

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Maltnothops's avatar

Steve Goodman:

“My baby came to me this morning.

She said, “I’m kinda confused.

If me and B.B. King was both drowning’.

Which one would you choose?”

And I said, “Oh, baby.”

I said, “Oh, baby.”

I said, “Oh, oh, oh, baby.

Baby, I ain’t never heard you play no blues.”

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dammit barry's avatar

King neber did DOWN HOME DELTA BLUES. Blind boy Fuller and Blind Lemon Jefferson are good examples. Hell, Bob Dylan's "Rainy Day Women" was more blues than B.B. King.

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phelpsmediation's avatar

Here we go again. The basic principle applied here is that a mythical belief system, without evidential support, actually with strong evidence against, is given power over real live humans and their rules against discrimination. This is just one more example of Christopher Hitchens subtitle “How Religion Poisons Everything”, was accurate. It is being used to destroy our anti discrimination laws, which took decades to develop and implement.

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avis piscivorus's avatar

The same arguments were used a century ago with black athletes instead of trans athletes.

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Maltnothops's avatar

I like to argue that every sports record from before integration needs an asterisk because some of the best athletes weren't permitted to play.

You batted . 400? Yeah, but some of those hits were against mediocre whites instead of major league quality black pitchers. Etc

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Jane in NC's avatar

And more recently, gay athletes.

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Holytape's avatar

I would ask the judges if they would agree if an all-white school objected playing against a school that has an African American player on it for religious reasons, however, I am no longer sure that the answer would be the one I expect.

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Len Koz's avatar

I know which answer I have come to expect from them...

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dammit barry's avatar

Skin color is clled the mark of Ham in their bible. Wiki says:

"In the Book of Genesis, the curse of Ham is described as a curse which was imposed upon Ham's son Canaan by the patriarch Noah. It occurs in the context of Noah's drunkenness and it is provoked by a shameful act that was perpetrated by Noah's son Ham, who "saw the nakedness of his father".[1][2] The exact nature of Ham's transgression and the reason Noah cursed Canaan when Ham had sinned have been debated for over 2,000 years.[3]

The story's original purpose may have been to justify the biblical subjection of the Canaanites to the Israelites,[4] or a land claim to a portion of New Kingdom of Egypt which ruled Canaan in the late Bronze Age.[5][6]

In later centuries, the narrative was interpreted by some Jews, Christians and Muslims as an explanation for black skin, as well as a justification for enslavement of black people.[7][8] ] Nevertheless, many Christians, Muslims and Jews now disagree with such interpretations, because in the biblical text, Ham himself is not cursed, and neither race nor skin color are ever mentioned.[9][10][11][disputed – discuss]

Even though many claim this, the bible stands ass god's book. Denial is impossible

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Len Koz's avatar

My older sister and I "saw the nakedness" of our father when he was recovering from a triple bypass. I remarked to her, "Looks like I inherited more than his eyes." 👀

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cdbunch's avatar

I'm pretty sure in the bible it was a euphemism for fucked.

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cdbunch's avatar

Amazing how much incest alcohol excused for the patriarchs. It was always the kid's fault.

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Len Koz's avatar

Like Lot and his daughters. I'm pretty sure if you drank enough to not recognize your own daughter then Mr. Happy will not be able to stand up.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

His 👂👂s.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

This will lead to what all this trans panic bullshit is leading to, more violence on trans people and cis women and girls. Look at what happened during the Olympics recently. A cis woman was accused of being trans just to foment more hate and she faced violence. Cis women just trying to pee have been accosted while in restrooms and there are laws being written to allow adults to inspect genitalia. All under the guise of protecting women’s sports from men, aka fairness and safety.

Bigotry against one group makes all groups less safe. And since there is a deep seated hatred for women, one of the fruits of which is the trans bigotry (it is its own problem as much as it is a part of the other. I am and have been someone who has accepted trans women as women and trans men as men, their fight is my fight.) this decision is a threat to all women and makes women much less safe. They know this, they don’t care because they hate us too. The coach saying he’s teaching his daughter whatever convictions are important is wrong, what he is teaching his daughters that he considers them less than men, less human, and less deserving. But that is a core component of Christianity.

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avis piscivorus's avatar

In other words: refusing to be discriminated is a form of discrimination.

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Jane in NC's avatar

Well, they also think fighting racism mean you're racist, so this is kinda on the nose.

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scenario's avatar

How long before religious schools will start accusing any girl whose larger and more athletic then average of being a trans-girl?

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larry parker's avatar

That's been going on for a long time.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Don't give them any ideas. They'll look for any excuse.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Or non athletic women. Some wackos believe Brigitte Macron is a trans woman 🤦

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

It's the same with Michelle Obama. I've got to wonder if they are trolling just for the sake of being shits.

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Matri's avatar

Unlikely. They are literally unable to differentiate fiction from reality.

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cdbunch's avatar

Where's the claim that African-Americans have an unfair advantage in men's basketball and should be banned. 70% of NBA players come from 13% of the population.

No judge would accept this argument, but LGBTQ2SIA discrimination is perfectly fine, especially because we choose to be discriminated against, have a higher rate of youth homelessness and suicide. Teenagers are choosing these things to be cool or edgy. Not to mention reducing the available dating pool from at least 45% to 5% of people.

Hadesdamn these assholes to the depths of Tartarus.

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Kukaan Ei Missään's avatar

"No judge would accept this argument"

Not even judges who thought that black people were "Children of Ham"?

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cdbunch's avatar

I really don’t think so. Too bad optics for no chance to win the decision. Also, I think it would still lead to a high chance of Impeachment. It would certainly put them in the crosshairs of a large number of Congresscritters.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

There are judges with the same level of knowledge of the law as cannon fodder.

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ericc's avatar

Thomas might.

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cdbunch's avatar

He's carefully avoided Interracial marriage when listing all the other decisions decided on the same basic, but unstated right that he wants to overturn, so I don't think he would. But I agree if anyone would it's him.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑗𝑢𝑑𝑔𝑒𝑠 𝑠𝑎𝑖𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑉𝑃𝐴’𝑠 𝑑𝑒𝑐𝑖𝑠𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑡𝑜 𝑘𝑖𝑐𝑘 𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛 𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙 “𝑤𝑎𝑠 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑛𝑒𝑢𝑡𝑟𝑎𝑙 𝑏𝑒𝑐𝑎𝑢𝑠𝑒 𝑖𝑡 𝑑𝑖𝑠𝑝𝑙𝑎𝑦𝑒𝑑 ℎ𝑜𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑡𝑜𝑤𝑎𝑟𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙’𝑠 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑓𝑠.”

They forgot a word there. The statement should read: " ... was not neutral because it displayed hostility toward the school's BIGOTED religious beliefs."

It seems to me as though Mid Vermont Christian School wants to continue to live in Ozzie and Harriet Land, while the rest of us live in the 21st century. Worse, for some skewed reason, 𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑗𝑢𝑑𝑔𝑒𝑠 𝑠𝑎𝑖𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑉𝑃𝐴’𝑠 𝑑𝑒𝑐𝑖𝑠𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑡𝑜 𝑘𝑖𝑐𝑘 𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛 𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙 “𝑤𝑎𝑠 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑛𝑒𝑢𝑡𝑟𝑎𝑙 𝑏𝑒𝑐𝑎𝑢𝑠𝑒 𝑖𝑡 𝑑𝑖𝑠𝑝𝑙𝑎𝑦𝑒𝑑 ℎ𝑜𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑡𝑜𝑤𝑎𝑟𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙’𝑠 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑓𝑠. The court's decision favors EXCLUSION of trans people over INCLUSION, probably because we're talking about that nasty Diversity, Equality, and INCLUSION again.

And you gots to look out for them nasty trans people, ya know. [/SARCASM 🤪]

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ericc's avatar

Never fall for the 'we just need a GOOD unlimited authority' approach, it's never good for long. School leagues leaders should not have the power to cast out schools merely because the league bosses think the school has bigoted beliefs. That's both discriminatory and a clear avenue for corruption. It's also a bit unfair to the students, who likely had little choice about their parents sending them to that school.

Fortunately, we don't need to step in the 'you're bigoted' 'I'm not, you are' here. It's much more simple. (1) the league has a rule, (2) by excluding trans players from their games, MVCS breaks it, and (3) the rule is not religiously discriminatory because a public school that did this would be similarly banned, while a religious school that doesn't do it won't be banned. That way, if MVCS changes their *participation policy* they can come back in, and it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about MVCS' belief statement or mission statement or whatever the heck they make their teachers and kids sign.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Yeah, I hear you. Not having the best day here, so ... 🤢🤮

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