Absurdly unconstitutional. At least it used to be. The church group wanting to build their 'seminary' on public land needs to made aware of the fact rights are not matters of majority rule. I don't care how many Mormons live in that district, they have no right to do this. The 'no-brainer' part describes the elected officials willing to let this asinine project go forward just because they don't have to pay for it. It is never the responsibility of our secular government to backstop anyone's religion, and the public schools are sub-divisions of government.
The Mormon god must not be very powerful. For that matter, none of the gods seem to be very powerful. Otherwise they could plop churches and 'seminaries' down anyplace they wanted. Doesn't the LDS church have several billion dollars squirreled away? Couldn't they just buy a piece of land nearby and build their 'seminary'? I am getting sick of all these true believers chipping away at the wall of separation. One group or another needs to cough up their god, or all of them need to STFU.
The messages the churches are putting out doesn't seem to have much power either given their obsession with forcing religion into the public schools to compensate for their failures.
You may be missing the point that three out of five board members are LDS. There never was any sort of meaningful contest to this, especially since all the negotiating was done in secret.
several Billion? Actually closer to a couple hundred Billion - well, they may have lost some in the recent market crash, but they have more than many small countries. They are also quietly buying up a lot of farmland across the country, and are in the top 10 of landowners in several states. It's quite obscene, and shouldn't be allowed by churches. Widow's Mite Report has a lot of financial details about them
The LDS church is swimming in money. They could easily afford to build their own facility off-campus and avoid the constitutional entanglements this 'deal' presents. We should note that it is NOT the job of the school district to solve the logistical problems of religious obligations of any faith, and they shouldn't be in the business of doing so. What's next? A fundie prosperity gospel building on campus? They gonna be cool when the Satanic Temple wants to set up shop next to the pre-school? Public schools are government-funded, and the First Amendment prohibits government from establishing any religion.
There ARE other options. But the LDS church isn't concerned with making sure LDS students meet their religious obligations; they're after RECRUITING non-mormons into their cult. This school district should have no part in that, and if they do, they should get sued into oblivion.
And our shitty gov will smile, and have his hand out for a bribe, or it won't happen. It will be yet another back room deal. I can't wait until that pos is termed out in'26.
I want the Satanic Temple to ask about using school property. Specifically this proposed Mormon building when they aren't indoctrinating kids.
I'd suggest the Muslims do that too, but they probably don't allow them in this burg, and I don't blame them for keeping their head down these days.
I guess they must have some Catholics; let's see catechism classes there so the kids don't have to go to their church.
Of course, with the Morg in charge 12 hours a day, there aren't going to be many useful time slots for anything else. But evenings, maybe... and the ST aren't afraid of the dark!
It's public property appropriated for religious instruction. Seems obviously State-unconstitutional.
And the money disparity is ridiculous.
Maybe the simplest thing to do is have some local Satanists request a long term lease agreement of the same building for 5am-6am and 6pm-7pm. At same rental rate that's (rounding up) $17/month - easily doable by a local organization. That way when the board says "no" or "not at that low cost," the school's preferential treatment and endorsement speaks for itself.
The LDS church is among the richest entities on the planet, yet somehow, they have to rely on a PUBLIC SCHOOL for a location to build their indoctrination center. And not only is the Vail school system willing to go for this, but give the LDS church a sweetheart deal on the rent.
Someone needs to remind the Vail school system of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
Rich people and organizations don't get rich by playing by the rules. If you put $5 in two pots in front of a millionaire and a food stamp user, and turn away, it's much more likely you'll turn back around to see an empty pot in front of the millionaire than the food stamp user.
I no longer believe it’s just ignorance about the separation of church and state. There has been a zillion cases on this topic. I think it’s just the old adage “same shit different day” — RWNJ’s just keep hoping that their case gets to SCOTUS in hopes of overturning that pesky law.
I agree. It's not just about ignorance. It's about an act of denial of State Church separation, and a desire to superimpose their own beliefs over our government. Frankly, I don't think the Mormon church has anywhere near the chance of doing that that some Christian faction might.
However, there is the matter of that $100 billion that the Mormon church has salted away. I wouldn't discount that for one second.
It’s a bit out of project Blitz. They know it’s unconstitutional but if they all do it over and over, something will get through eventually, then the camel is shitting in the corner and sleeping on top of the fire of the tent.
It's interesting to note that in a similar circumstance - an act by congress allowing the purchase of public land for the use of the baptist church - then-President James Madison, who knew a thing or two about what the Constitution meant, vetoed the bill because it represented a violation of the Constitution's Establishment Clause:
"To the House of Representatives of the Unite States: February 28, 1811.
Having examined and considered the bill entitled “An act for the relief of Richard Tervin, William Coleman, Edwin Lewis, Samuel Mims, Joseph Wilson, and the Baptist church at Salem meeting-house, in the Mississippi Territory,” I now return the same to the House of Representatives, in which it originated, with the follow objection:
Because the bill, in reserving a certain parcel of land in the United States, for the use of the said Baptist church, comprises a principle and precedent for the appropriation of funds of the United States, for the use and support of religious societies, contrary to the article of the constitution which declares that Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment."
It is definitely the latter. Although the way some religions indoctrinate their sheep, they may not understand, because they were never taught the actual truth. for example all the fundy weirdos going around yelling we are a christian nation, no we are not!
They should apply for a long-term lease of the same building, for different hours. Consider that just about any response to that application is better than the current situation:
1. The school says 'yes', the Mormons hate it, they scuttle the deal.
2. The school says 'no' and the deal gets legally killed by a discrimination lawsuit.
3. The school says 'yes,' the Mormons accept it, so the Jewish or Muslim kids get a place nearby to study and pray.
"And yet there’s no public record of those talks before this deal was quickly proposed and approved."
That's how Mormons usually operate here, they've learned long ago that when there is no paperwork, it's considerably harder to prove anything in court. Those talks probably happened at various church gatherings, dinners, parties, and other assorted social events, they were never formal talks and therefore you won't find any paperwork. Government meetings for discussion would mean that somebody might stop them, and they can't have that. The stranglehold is horrifying.
If you add the wealth of the LDS church as a whole to the equation, it becomes obvious why they're the local political bullies. Good luck to Secular AZ and FFRF, this is likely to be an uphill battle.
The only way religion gains more converts is by indoctrinating children.
Remember what the hateful homophobic harpy Anita Bryant said?
"Gays can't reproduce, so they recruit."
Guess we can see who the real recruiters have always been. She finally did the world a favor and stopped breathing.
Which is terribly stupid, as it's not like they lack genitalia! Did she think we got neutered?
Faut croire.
Every accusation a confession. Has anyone put a target on her grave for pie throwing yet?
Makes converts and holds on to the people they have.
Absurdly unconstitutional. At least it used to be. The church group wanting to build their 'seminary' on public land needs to made aware of the fact rights are not matters of majority rule. I don't care how many Mormons live in that district, they have no right to do this. The 'no-brainer' part describes the elected officials willing to let this asinine project go forward just because they don't have to pay for it. It is never the responsibility of our secular government to backstop anyone's religion, and the public schools are sub-divisions of government.
The Mormon god must not be very powerful. For that matter, none of the gods seem to be very powerful. Otherwise they could plop churches and 'seminaries' down anyplace they wanted. Doesn't the LDS church have several billion dollars squirreled away? Couldn't they just buy a piece of land nearby and build their 'seminary'? I am getting sick of all these true believers chipping away at the wall of separation. One group or another needs to cough up their god, or all of them need to STFU.
The messages the churches are putting out doesn't seem to have much power either given their obsession with forcing religion into the public schools to compensate for their failures.
You may be missing the point that three out of five board members are LDS. There never was any sort of meaningful contest to this, especially since all the negotiating was done in secret.
WE need a lawsuit (I live in that district.)
several Billion? Actually closer to a couple hundred Billion - well, they may have lost some in the recent market crash, but they have more than many small countries. They are also quietly buying up a lot of farmland across the country, and are in the top 10 of landowners in several states. It's quite obscene, and shouldn't be allowed by churches. Widow's Mite Report has a lot of financial details about them
The LDS church is swimming in money. They could easily afford to build their own facility off-campus and avoid the constitutional entanglements this 'deal' presents. We should note that it is NOT the job of the school district to solve the logistical problems of religious obligations of any faith, and they shouldn't be in the business of doing so. What's next? A fundie prosperity gospel building on campus? They gonna be cool when the Satanic Temple wants to set up shop next to the pre-school? Public schools are government-funded, and the First Amendment prohibits government from establishing any religion.
There ARE other options. But the LDS church isn't concerned with making sure LDS students meet their religious obligations; they're after RECRUITING non-mormons into their cult. This school district should have no part in that, and if they do, they should get sued into oblivion.
At one point the LDS were said to have eclipsed the RCC in being the largest real estate land holders in this country, I don't know if they still are.
I think they probably are. They're certainly richer than the RCC.
They are better at hiding the abuse.
Were better. Or maybe just overlooked for a while given the massive scope of the RCC sexual abuse scandal. But that's not the case anymore.
See Masterson, Danny.
See also, Ballard, Tim.
Good, I hate abusers.
And our shitty gov will smile, and have his hand out for a bribe, or it won't happen. It will be yet another back room deal. I can't wait until that pos is termed out in'26.
I want the Satanic Temple to ask about using school property. Specifically this proposed Mormon building when they aren't indoctrinating kids.
I'd suggest the Muslims do that too, but they probably don't allow them in this burg, and I don't blame them for keeping their head down these days.
I guess they must have some Catholics; let's see catechism classes there so the kids don't have to go to their church.
Of course, with the Morg in charge 12 hours a day, there aren't going to be many useful time slots for anything else. But evenings, maybe... and the ST aren't afraid of the dark!
YES!
Of course they are. All part of p. 2025 I don't doubt.
A Christian building on a public school campus that will most likely be named after Joseph Smith, a child molester.
If this moves forward, I give it about a 75% chance that within 2 years of the building opening, there will be a child sex scandal attached to it.
And criminal con man. He thought the con up while in jail.
Either him or Brigham Young.
Religion has no place in schools, colleges or universities.
👆🎯Except as a course in accurate historical evils, it has visited upon the world.
Or society.
It's public property appropriated for religious instruction. Seems obviously State-unconstitutional.
And the money disparity is ridiculous.
Maybe the simplest thing to do is have some local Satanists request a long term lease agreement of the same building for 5am-6am and 6pm-7pm. At same rental rate that's (rounding up) $17/month - easily doable by a local organization. That way when the board says "no" or "not at that low cost," the school's preferential treatment and endorsement speaks for itself.
That's actually a great idea!
Just another example of elected officials illegally using their secular positions to advance their religious beliefs.
The LDS church is among the richest entities on the planet, yet somehow, they have to rely on a PUBLIC SCHOOL for a location to build their indoctrination center. And not only is the Vail school system willing to go for this, but give the LDS church a sweetheart deal on the rent.
Someone needs to remind the Vail school system of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
Rich people and organizations don't get rich by playing by the rules. If you put $5 in two pots in front of a millionaire and a food stamp user, and turn away, it's much more likely you'll turn back around to see an empty pot in front of the millionaire than the food stamp user.
You are likely to see an empty pot in front of both, and $10 in the millionaire's pocket.
Very true.
Or no pots at all and a millionaire with a lumpy coat.
IZZAT a fact? Here I just thought Agassi was an above-average tennis player. Hmph!
I no longer believe it’s just ignorance about the separation of church and state. There has been a zillion cases on this topic. I think it’s just the old adage “same shit different day” — RWNJ’s just keep hoping that their case gets to SCOTUS in hopes of overturning that pesky law.
I agree. It's not just about ignorance. It's about an act of denial of State Church separation, and a desire to superimpose their own beliefs over our government. Frankly, I don't think the Mormon church has anywhere near the chance of doing that that some Christian faction might.
However, there is the matter of that $100 billion that the Mormon church has salted away. I wouldn't discount that for one second.
It’s a bit out of project Blitz. They know it’s unconstitutional but if they all do it over and over, something will get through eventually, then the camel is shitting in the corner and sleeping on top of the fire of the tent.
It's interesting to note that in a similar circumstance - an act by congress allowing the purchase of public land for the use of the baptist church - then-President James Madison, who knew a thing or two about what the Constitution meant, vetoed the bill because it represented a violation of the Constitution's Establishment Clause:
"To the House of Representatives of the Unite States: February 28, 1811.
Having examined and considered the bill entitled “An act for the relief of Richard Tervin, William Coleman, Edwin Lewis, Samuel Mims, Joseph Wilson, and the Baptist church at Salem meeting-house, in the Mississippi Territory,” I now return the same to the House of Representatives, in which it originated, with the follow objection:
Because the bill, in reserving a certain parcel of land in the United States, for the use of the said Baptist church, comprises a principle and precedent for the appropriation of funds of the United States, for the use and support of religious societies, contrary to the article of the constitution which declares that Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment."
People who don't know their history......
They either don't know their history or would prefer to IGNORE IT, so they can play to their own preferences.
It is definitely the latter. Although the way some religions indoctrinate their sheep, they may not understand, because they were never taught the actual truth. for example all the fundy weirdos going around yelling we are a christian nation, no we are not!
Which is why we have to be vigilant in reminding them, in no uncertain terms, what our history actually is.
Is this an appropriate time to write (again) about the penguin atlas of world history?
I haven't done it in a wee while ....
:-)
Nor do they want to...
I am deeply, deeply disappointed that I appear to be the only person posting Penguins Of Madagascar memes.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/06785d50ad6010152200188477202672ff907724015ed99c0d8402de4e215e1c.gif
https://ibb.co/BHYxDfKV
Upvoted before stealing.
Also good for commenting on "Cyber""Trucks".
I’m sorry, the rent is $100/month? That’s pathetic and obviously this move is solely to benefit the LDS. TAX CHURCHES.
The pope has lawyers looking into space for seminary this cheap. So is Moody B.I., Liberty U, and many others. Get ready for a building boom!!!!!!!
Gross. Why can’t the Vatican leave their hands off other countries?
Is there any Jewish or Muslim students there ? They absolutely need a yeshiva or a madrassa on campus.
They should apply for a long-term lease of the same building, for different hours. Consider that just about any response to that application is better than the current situation:
1. The school says 'yes', the Mormons hate it, they scuttle the deal.
2. The school says 'no' and the deal gets legally killed by a discrimination lawsuit.
3. The school says 'yes,' the Mormons accept it, so the Jewish or Muslim kids get a place nearby to study and pray.
Bringem Young.
Know who never knocks on your door to shove their religion down your throat? Know who never asks to use public land for religious indoctrination?
The correct answer is us LGBT folks, oh and unlike the parasites of Xtianity, we pay taxes.
https://christianfunnypictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/atheist-evanglizing-door-knocking.jpg
An oldie but a goodie!
Stolen!!! But I upvoted it first cuz I got manners and shit.
"And yet there’s no public record of those talks before this deal was quickly proposed and approved."
That's how Mormons usually operate here, they've learned long ago that when there is no paperwork, it's considerably harder to prove anything in court. Those talks probably happened at various church gatherings, dinners, parties, and other assorted social events, they were never formal talks and therefore you won't find any paperwork. Government meetings for discussion would mean that somebody might stop them, and they can't have that. The stranglehold is horrifying.
If you add the wealth of the LDS church as a whole to the equation, it becomes obvious why they're the local political bullies. Good luck to Secular AZ and FFRF, this is likely to be an uphill battle.