The Satanic Temple definitely knows what buttons to press, and the fact that Christians actually believe the Satanic Temple folks believe in Satan is the definition of irony. I'm glad to see they're out there challenging the Christian right--they've definitely got cajones.
They also have some damned fine words to give expression to their position. Those words may have come in fair part from Aron Ra, but I'm sure that Bast had her own thoughts on the page when she gave her invocation. I have reread it now a couple times, and I find it to be impressive and positive in the extreme.
That it was at least initially received by the city council in a positive fashion is an encouraging indicator that, just maybe, Battle Ground is not the close-minded enclave that it could have been.
They are close enough to Portland to see that it's not the socialist hellhole that burned to the ground that Fox "News" told them it was. Just enough cognitive dissonance to open their minds a tiny bit.
They keep the cherries they pick in separate baskets so they can present the ones that back up the specific authoritarian rule they want to push at any given time. It doesn't matter that basket A contradicts basket B, only one basket gets used at a time.
I have used a similar point. Try calling a "christian" an atheist and you get a medium to strong negative response. Next, ask if they believe in Zeus, Thor, Odin, Vishnu... well then: "You are an atheist, you just pick the gods you want and disregard the rest, okay, then you are a selective atheist, maybe?"
Which is a very ignorant, stupid idea: that atheists are just religious, under a different name. If the apologists, theists, evangelists, etc., weren't completely gutless, they would argue about what atheism is, not what they wish it was. Then again, why do they worry about atheism so much?
Atheism, just one example, from American Atheists. "American Atheists believes that the most consistent and inclusive definition of “atheist” is someone who lacks a belief in gods. It is not an affirmative belief that there are not gods nor is it a statement about any other beliefs a person holds. It is simply the rejection of the assertion that there are gods.
Is atheism a religion?
Atheism is not a religion nor a belief system. It is the answer to one question: Do you believe in gods?"
The answer to the last question is, of course, NO.
The problem with mythical beings is that, not being real or having any actual actions to look to for judgment, we have to go by second and third-hand reports of those who have alleged to have known of such actions.
Which all too frequently devolves down to: The First Liar Doesn't Have a Chance.
Because if you’re going to have a mythical being, it’s better to have one that doesn’t advocate burning in hell forever, burning witches, burning heretics, building immense palaces for God and his best buddies to live in, elevating stupid people to positions of power, and hiding sex amd abuse scandals so that your gods look like much better beings than they are..
Well, of course. The need for mythical being is itself based on the myth that we need them. I don’t feel any particular need for one, and most of the people I know who are atheists don’t either.
But here we are: mythical beings exist in the mythical imaginations of real people. They are here whether we like it or not even though “they”, “are” and “here” are open to discussion.
It’s rather ironic, don’t you think? They are Schrodinger’s gods: both here and not here at the same time. But this illustrates an important principle of social psychology: and this is what we have to deal with;
What is perceived as real is real in its consequences..
Of course they do. That’s rather the point of having them being mythical. If they were real they might show up in contradict people seeking power and money.
Heh. Back in the day … say, in ancient Ugarit before the Bronze Age Collapse, I wonder how it would have been taken to ask (in public, no less), why should El, or Asherah, or Ba’al Haddad (the storm god) be considered “any better” than Amun or Osiris of the Egyptians, or Hittite or Babylonian or Mycenaean deities? Doug Wilson and some of the folks in Battle Ground appear to have a tribal sensibility about religious diversity that might make them feel right at home in Bronze Age Ugarit (and worship Ba’al because of Ba’al-worship Nationalist feelings) or in Jerusalem under the aspirationally-imperial King Josiah (see 2 Kings 22). Then again, I’m guessing most ordinary people in ancient Ugarit were probably more open-minded and accepting of religious pluralism (including accepting the idea of a plurality of gods in many places) than Doug Wilson’s authoritarian followers.
Sent to the mayor with the subject line "Recent invocation":
Mayor Overholser:
In an article on the Friendly Atheist blog (friendlyatheist.com), I was pleasantly surprised to read about your city's invocation policy and the fact that the inaugural invocation was delivered by a member of The Satanic Temple. What surprised me was not that there was an invocation, nor that it was from a Satanic Temple member, but the professionalism and respect that was shown. In too many cases, non-Christian invocations, and especially invocations from The Satanic Temple, are met with derision and disrespect. The more common response to such invocations resembles what happened in Ottumwa, Iowa recently.
I find it refreshing that an elected official at the local government level truly understands that religious freedom means religious freedom for all, even if one's personal religious beliefs are the opposite of another's. Thank you.
And the real surprise: a far right Christian Nationalist who actually understands the First Amendment and is capable of treating someone he disagrees with respectfully. The only thing I can think of as to why the mayor showed respect os the town's proximity to Portland and the resulting diversity of thought he is exposed to.
Seeing a whole lot of people who think differently from you and each other while realizing that almost all of them are basically decent can have that effect.
If Battle Ground, Washington thought that it could insulate itself from a secular outside world, it was sadly and badly mistaken. Bast Sekhmet of The Satanic Temple delivered a thoughtful, beautiful, and indeed inspiring invocation to the October 5th city council meeting. Worthy of note, too, her statement was far less an endorsement of a fictional deity than it was of admirable principles which should guide one's life, growth, and development. I especially find it astonishing that any negative response to her opening was delayed in its arrival.
I STILL think that the best way to open a council or any other government meeting is, to use one phrase from yesterday's blog, "LET'S GET TO WORK!" As an alternative, I'll take Bast's every day of the week.
I live just outside Battle Ground and have been following the whole Maddox thing (along with invocations thing, the mayor pushed forward a couple Christian-friendly proclamations but wouldn't do one for Pride month).
I laughed out loud when I saw the FB post about how the first invocation was given by the Satanic Temple. It was a good invocation. Of course, most of the fervent Christians wouldn't even listen to it. I think they may be less in favor of prayer before the council meeting now.... One of them said the "freedom of religion" in the Constitution was only for Christian religions/flavors thereof. I suggested he go back to school to take a history class.... But overall, the discussion was not as uncivil as I might have expected.
In terms of them taking over the town:
And another manager, who co-hosted a podcast with a prominent local pastor, said their show was “an experiment in Christian localism,” talking about how they wanted to control as much as they could in Battle Ground.
Given what I know of Christians, they may end up regretting this whole experiment.... look at all the schisms in Christianity! In the meantime, it is depressing to watch. A shout out to all the local activists who are keeping an eye on the situation and putting in FOIA requests and whatnot!
edited: forgot to mention that there is a large 7th Day Adventist presence in the county... ont sure how they get long with the Maddox' preferred flavor of Christianity.
I didn’t realize TST was only formed in 2013? So much has changed since then. While I appreciate what they do in the name of separation of church and state (very necessary), I wish that it was less of a satirical response to a very real situation we find ourselves in. Especially since our government was overthrown by Christo-fascists in 2024.
People are still afraid of the term atheist today. Many atheists are humanists and many agnostic are just chicken shit atheists in my opinion.
The invocation looks to have had the usual effect of putting the congreagation to sleep.🥱😴
As a former minister I can say the bible does not tell them that an invocation prayer before meetings is a blessing. Remember to always ask them the one question they hate the most, "where does it say that in the bible?" If you keep asking that one question they will spew a bunch of references to verses that mean absolutely nothing. Psalms is a favorite source because it is all just meaningless bad poetry.
The most difficult lesson for me to learn in seminary was to never answer questions. I never did get that one rght. But you have all seen it in practice when they redirect with a question instead of an answer. Another thing they teach about teaching is to ask questions, pause, then give their answer before anybody has enough time to think about it. Religious teaching is the original brain-washing.
I want to know how any seminary can justify the "lesson" of not answering questions with 1 Peter 3:15 out there. True believers are SUPPOSED to have an answer for everything, yet when I look at the current state of Christian apologetics, what I see is a whole lot of hand-waving, moving the goalposts, and BS.
Hand-waving, goalpost shifting and BS 𝘢𝘳𝘦 their answers. They are afraid of difficult questions that can undermine their brainwashing, so they have to do everything they can to steer back to the talking points their pastor gave them.
It amuses me when some xtians will say "If you don't believe in Satan, why do you call yourself Satanists?" My immediate response is "Why do so many who call themselves Christians often say and do things that are in direct contradiction to what Jesus instructed?"
I don't live in a designated city so my area is controlled by a County Commission. I've never been to a commission meeting so I looked it up on their website. Within the longer explanation of the meetings was this sentence: "This meeting begins at 2 p.m. with an Invocation, the Pledge of Allegiance, Presentations and Awards, discussion of Agenda and Citizens-to be-Heard items."
The Satanic Temple definitely knows what buttons to press, and the fact that Christians actually believe the Satanic Temple folks believe in Satan is the definition of irony. I'm glad to see they're out there challenging the Christian right--they've definitely got cajones.
They also have some damned fine words to give expression to their position. Those words may have come in fair part from Aron Ra, but I'm sure that Bast had her own thoughts on the page when she gave her invocation. I have reread it now a couple times, and I find it to be impressive and positive in the extreme.
That it was at least initially received by the city council in a positive fashion is an encouraging indicator that, just maybe, Battle Ground is not the close-minded enclave that it could have been.
They are close enough to Portland to see that it's not the socialist hellhole that burned to the ground that Fox "News" told them it was. Just enough cognitive dissonance to open their minds a tiny bit.
"invocation prayer at the beginning of each council meeting will be a blessing. I know because the Bible tells us so."
Your Jesus in your bible tells people to pray in secret and not make a show of their faith, pastor.
Why would he actually read the bible? He “knows” what it says.
More like he knows what he WANTS it to say.
They keep the cherries they pick in separate baskets so they can present the ones that back up the specific authoritarian rule they want to push at any given time. It doesn't matter that basket A contradicts basket B, only one basket gets used at a time.
But why is one mythical being. "satan", any better than another, "god"?
I suspect it's pretty much all just based on what they see when they look into a mirror.....
I have used a similar point. Try calling a "christian" an atheist and you get a medium to strong negative response. Next, ask if they believe in Zeus, Thor, Odin, Vishnu... well then: "You are an atheist, you just pick the gods you want and disregard the rest, okay, then you are a selective atheist, maybe?"
Which is a very ignorant, stupid idea: that atheists are just religious, under a different name. If the apologists, theists, evangelists, etc., weren't completely gutless, they would argue about what atheism is, not what they wish it was. Then again, why do they worry about atheism so much?
Atheism, just one example, from American Atheists. "American Atheists believes that the most consistent and inclusive definition of “atheist” is someone who lacks a belief in gods. It is not an affirmative belief that there are not gods nor is it a statement about any other beliefs a person holds. It is simply the rejection of the assertion that there are gods.
Is atheism a religion?
Atheism is not a religion nor a belief system. It is the answer to one question: Do you believe in gods?"
The answer to the last question is, of course, NO.
Got to say it: Atheism is a belief like bald is a hair color! 👩🦲
But what do you do if you’re a bald atheist? What do you do about that?
Then you got a lack of hair and a lack of belief! Perfectly consistent!
Off is a television channel.....no? 😉
That, too!
"We're both atheists, I just take it one God farther than you."
The problem with mythical beings is that, not being real or having any actual actions to look to for judgment, we have to go by second and third-hand reports of those who have alleged to have known of such actions.
Which all too frequently devolves down to: The First Liar Doesn't Have a Chance.
Because if you’re going to have a mythical being, it’s better to have one that doesn’t advocate burning in hell forever, burning witches, burning heretics, building immense palaces for God and his best buddies to live in, elevating stupid people to positions of power, and hiding sex amd abuse scandals so that your gods look like much better beings than they are..
But why have a mythical being at all?
Well, of course. The need for mythical being is itself based on the myth that we need them. I don’t feel any particular need for one, and most of the people I know who are atheists don’t either.
But here we are: mythical beings exist in the mythical imaginations of real people. They are here whether we like it or not even though “they”, “are” and “here” are open to discussion.
It’s rather ironic, don’t you think? They are Schrodinger’s gods: both here and not here at the same time. But this illustrates an important principle of social psychology: and this is what we have to deal with;
What is perceived as real is real in its consequences..
How about, mythical beings, such as, "gods", give perceived, authority to those who want power over others?
Of course they do. That’s rather the point of having them being mythical. If they were real they might show up in contradict people seeking power and money.
Heh. Back in the day … say, in ancient Ugarit before the Bronze Age Collapse, I wonder how it would have been taken to ask (in public, no less), why should El, or Asherah, or Ba’al Haddad (the storm god) be considered “any better” than Amun or Osiris of the Egyptians, or Hittite or Babylonian or Mycenaean deities? Doug Wilson and some of the folks in Battle Ground appear to have a tribal sensibility about religious diversity that might make them feel right at home in Bronze Age Ugarit (and worship Ba’al because of Ba’al-worship Nationalist feelings) or in Jerusalem under the aspirationally-imperial King Josiah (see 2 Kings 22). Then again, I’m guessing most ordinary people in ancient Ugarit were probably more open-minded and accepting of religious pluralism (including accepting the idea of a plurality of gods in many places) than Doug Wilson’s authoritarian followers.
Sent to the mayor with the subject line "Recent invocation":
Mayor Overholser:
In an article on the Friendly Atheist blog (friendlyatheist.com), I was pleasantly surprised to read about your city's invocation policy and the fact that the inaugural invocation was delivered by a member of The Satanic Temple. What surprised me was not that there was an invocation, nor that it was from a Satanic Temple member, but the professionalism and respect that was shown. In too many cases, non-Christian invocations, and especially invocations from The Satanic Temple, are met with derision and disrespect. The more common response to such invocations resembles what happened in Ottumwa, Iowa recently.
I find it refreshing that an elected official at the local government level truly understands that religious freedom means religious freedom for all, even if one's personal religious beliefs are the opposite of another's. Thank you.
Joseph King
Does this mean your parents really named you "Jo-king"?
Yes. They called me Joey when I was young. Around the age of 11, I decided that I wanted to be Joe instead. So yes, I really am just JoeKing. 😃
You KNOW.....
We're gonna call you "Joey".
(Unless you hate it.)
𝐼 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑡𝑜 𝑎𝑠𝑠𝑢𝑚𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑡ℎ𝑜𝑢𝑔ℎ𝑡 𝑜𝑛𝑙𝑦 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛𝑠 𝑤𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑠𝑖𝑔𝑛 𝑢𝑝 𝑡𝑜 𝑑𝑜 𝑡ℎ𝑒 ℎ𝑜𝑛𝑜𝑟𝑠.
Dougie Wilson connected far right fanatics? Your assumption is likely correct, Hemant.
𝑊ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝑠ℎ𝑒 𝑎𝑟𝑟𝑖𝑣𝑒𝑑 𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑐𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑐𝑖𝑙 𝑚𝑒𝑒𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑔, 𝐵𝑎𝑠𝑡 𝑏𝑟𝑜𝑢𝑔ℎ𝑡 𝑎𝑙𝑜𝑛𝑔 𝑠𝑜𝑚𝑒 𝑠𝑢𝑝𝑝𝑜𝑟𝑡, 𝑏𝑢𝑡 𝑠ℎ𝑒 𝑤𝑎𝑠 𝑝𝑙𝑒𝑎𝑠𝑎𝑛𝑡𝑙𝑦 𝑠𝑢𝑟𝑝𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑒𝑑 𝑏𝑦 ℎ𝑜𝑤 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑓𝑒𝑠𝑠𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑎𝑙 𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑦𝑜𝑛𝑒 𝑤𝑎𝑠. 𝐸𝑣𝑒𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑚𝑎𝑦𝑜𝑟 𝑠ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑘 ℎ𝑒𝑟 ℎ𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑏𝑒𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑚𝑒𝑒𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑏𝑒𝑔𝑎𝑛 𝑡𝑜 𝑚𝑎𝑘𝑒 𝑠𝑢𝑟𝑒 ℎ𝑒 𝑤𝑎𝑠 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑛𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑐𝑖𝑛𝑔 ℎ𝑒𝑟 𝑛𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑐𝑜𝑟𝑟𝑒𝑐𝑡𝑙𝑦.
And the real surprise: a far right Christian Nationalist who actually understands the First Amendment and is capable of treating someone he disagrees with respectfully. The only thing I can think of as to why the mayor showed respect os the town's proximity to Portland and the resulting diversity of thought he is exposed to.
Interesting thought. Knowledge and fairness by osmosis? I like it.
Seeing a whole lot of people who think differently from you and each other while realizing that almost all of them are basically decent can have that effect.
If Battle Ground, Washington thought that it could insulate itself from a secular outside world, it was sadly and badly mistaken. Bast Sekhmet of The Satanic Temple delivered a thoughtful, beautiful, and indeed inspiring invocation to the October 5th city council meeting. Worthy of note, too, her statement was far less an endorsement of a fictional deity than it was of admirable principles which should guide one's life, growth, and development. I especially find it astonishing that any negative response to her opening was delayed in its arrival.
I STILL think that the best way to open a council or any other government meeting is, to use one phrase from yesterday's blog, "LET'S GET TO WORK!" As an alternative, I'll take Bast's every day of the week.
A feel good story for the Halloween season.🤘
Where joyful trick-or-treaters say "Ave Satanas." :)
I live just outside Battle Ground and have been following the whole Maddox thing (along with invocations thing, the mayor pushed forward a couple Christian-friendly proclamations but wouldn't do one for Pride month).
I laughed out loud when I saw the FB post about how the first invocation was given by the Satanic Temple. It was a good invocation. Of course, most of the fervent Christians wouldn't even listen to it. I think they may be less in favor of prayer before the council meeting now.... One of them said the "freedom of religion" in the Constitution was only for Christian religions/flavors thereof. I suggested he go back to school to take a history class.... But overall, the discussion was not as uncivil as I might have expected.
In terms of them taking over the town:
And another manager, who co-hosted a podcast with a prominent local pastor, said their show was “an experiment in Christian localism,” talking about how they wanted to control as much as they could in Battle Ground.
Given what I know of Christians, they may end up regretting this whole experiment.... look at all the schisms in Christianity! In the meantime, it is depressing to watch. A shout out to all the local activists who are keeping an eye on the situation and putting in FOIA requests and whatnot!
edited: forgot to mention that there is a large 7th Day Adventist presence in the county... ont sure how they get long with the Maddox' preferred flavor of Christianity.
I didn’t realize TST was only formed in 2013? So much has changed since then. While I appreciate what they do in the name of separation of church and state (very necessary), I wish that it was less of a satirical response to a very real situation we find ourselves in. Especially since our government was overthrown by Christo-fascists in 2024.
People are still afraid of the term atheist today. Many atheists are humanists and many agnostic are just chicken shit atheists in my opinion.
"While most current MAGA present were basically just glad to see a white male in the role."
The invocation looks to have had the usual effect of putting the congreagation to sleep.🥱😴
As a former minister I can say the bible does not tell them that an invocation prayer before meetings is a blessing. Remember to always ask them the one question they hate the most, "where does it say that in the bible?" If you keep asking that one question they will spew a bunch of references to verses that mean absolutely nothing. Psalms is a favorite source because it is all just meaningless bad poetry.
The most difficult lesson for me to learn in seminary was to never answer questions. I never did get that one rght. But you have all seen it in practice when they redirect with a question instead of an answer. Another thing they teach about teaching is to ask questions, pause, then give their answer before anybody has enough time to think about it. Religious teaching is the original brain-washing.
I want to know how any seminary can justify the "lesson" of not answering questions with 1 Peter 3:15 out there. True believers are SUPPOSED to have an answer for everything, yet when I look at the current state of Christian apologetics, what I see is a whole lot of hand-waving, moving the goalposts, and BS.
And damned little substance.
Hand-waving, goalpost shifting and BS 𝘢𝘳𝘦 their answers. They are afraid of difficult questions that can undermine their brainwashing, so they have to do everything they can to steer back to the talking points their pastor gave them.
I'm guessing that's where the Vogons got their poetic inspiration.
The only creator deity worth paying any attention to is Tak. Tak doesn't require that you think of him, only that you think.
https://wiki.lspace.org/Tak
It amuses me when some xtians will say "If you don't believe in Satan, why do you call yourself Satanists?" My immediate response is "Why do so many who call themselves Christians often say and do things that are in direct contradiction to what Jesus instructed?"
I don't live in a designated city so my area is controlled by a County Commission. I've never been to a commission meeting so I looked it up on their website. Within the longer explanation of the meetings was this sentence: "This meeting begins at 2 p.m. with an Invocation, the Pledge of Allegiance, Presentations and Awards, discussion of Agenda and Citizens-to be-Heard items."
I didn't find any info about the invocation.
Officials who say a prayer never hurt anyone suddenly need to be in the hallway for exactly 2 minutes.