Posted by Hemant Mehta in Outspoken atheist Rob Sherman, who (with his daughter) filed a lawsuit that eventually put a stop to the Mandatory Moment of Silence, was back in the Illinois General Assembly on Wednesday.
He was there arguing Governor Rod Blagojevich’s $1,000,000 grant to the Pilgrim Baptist Church — which was given to them via the more secular Loop Lab School. (Shadiness all around.)
Anyway, he got into an exchange with Rep. Monique Davis (D-Chicago).
You won’t believe what she said (emphasis is mine):
Davis: I don’t know what you have against God, but some of us don’t have much against him. We look forward to him and his blessings. And it’s really a tragedy — it’s tragic — when a person who is engaged in anything related to God, they want to fight. They want to fight prayer in school.
I don’t see you (Sherman) fighting guns in school. You know?
I’m trying to understand the philosophy that you want to spread in the state of Illinois. This is the Land of Lincoln. This is the Land of Lincoln where people believe in God, where people believe in protecting their children.… What you have to spew and spread is extremely dangerous, it’s dangerous–
Sherman: What’s dangerous, ma’am?
Davis: It’s dangerous to the progression of this state. And it’s dangerous for our children to even know that your philosophy exists! Now you will go to court to fight kids to have the opportunity to be quiet for a minute. But damn if you’ll go to [court] to fight for them to keep guns out of their hands. I am fed up! Get out of that seat!
Sherman: Thank you for sharing your perspective with me, and I’m sure that if this matter does go to court—
Davis: You have no right to be here! We believe in something. You believe in destroying! You believe in destroying what this state was built upon.
According to Davis, atheism is destroying the state.
Corrupt or misguided politicians have nothing to do with it, of course…
As Eric Zorn of the Chicago Tribune puts it, “consider what the outcry would have been if a lawmaker had launched a similar attack on the beliefs of a religious person.”
If that happened, you might have actually heard about this story by now. It would be playing on news stations everywhere. But since the attack is on atheists, this is likely the first time you’ve read anything about it.
Not enough for you? Listen to the audio of the exchange (MP3).
Infuriating, isn’t it?
(via Change of Subject)
[tags]atheist, atheism[/tags]
I’m sure the alchemists thought the knowledge that chemistry existed would corrupt their children, who would then become chemists.
Holy shit.
Holy crap… such hatred in her voice.
The spooky thing is the people applauding her.
I think the thing is religious people DO react dramatically when their beliefs are attacked. Some even act like Representative Davis when faced with the mere presence of atheist philosophy!
One reason there’s no similar outcry in this case is because atheists aren’t a bunch of thin-skinned believers who feel they must be protected at all costs from dissenting viewpoints. I don’t think there SHOULD be an outcry after this.
This is GOOD, in my view. Yes, let’s start talking about this stuff openly. No, I don’t mean in a state assembly meeting… that’s clearly inappropriate to the business of running a state.
I think that the message really should be that atheists aren’t afraid of talking about this, and silence HELPS those who want their bigoted views to remain unchallenged. Atheists should say, “PLEASE tell us, and let us talk about all the ways you don’t like us, or what we stand for. But we will talk about you in turn, and with all the kindness, openness and respect you give us.”
Rob’s website confused me.
“Made me feel like Rosa Parks, who also was told, “Get out of that chair,” and arrested when she didn’t give up her seat on the bus to Whitey. Now that Negroes have political power, it seems that they have no problem at all with discrimination, just as long as it isn’t them who are being discriminated against. ”
Um… …yeah. A state Congressperson just said that atheism is bad for kids to even hear about, and that the separation of church and state is meaningless. His response was to call her an uppity black woman, and to compare his situation to that of Rosa Parks.
Way to not win my support, Rob.
Someone help me sharpen my logical fallacy detection, Would the topic brought up about guns in schools be a straw man?
Another “devout” thiest saying “I’m right and everyone else is wrong”. It’s no more concrete than when I say “there is no god and you’re wrong”. Weigh the evidence and make your own decisions! Oh, wait… that’s against belief isn’t it? Oopsie!
This makes me so sad and so mad and frustrated all at once!
Cautious,
I believe that Rob was not calling Davis an uppity black woman, but was describing her as a “negro” who is now ironically on the other side of a new civil rights movement. I agree that the comparison is very poorly done.
Sam,
The argument with the guns is transparently an irrelevant argument. But the general thrust of it seems to be an ad hominem, as if to accuse Rob of advocating gun violence.
On the optimistic side, all the comments on the news article are sympathetic!
I wish people would decide whether it’s atheists or gays that are destroying America. I keep getting such mixed signals from the RRRW. Of course being a gaytheist I suppose it doesn’t really matter because either way I’m “it”.
BTW, it’s rather nostalgic seeing a story about Dawn and Rob Sherman (if something so recent can be considered nostalgic). Dawn Sherman was one of the first things I posted about when I first began blogging. I’m glad to see her case went so well and that her father hasn’t lost any of his gusto.
I have a blog meme for you, if you choose to accept it:
http://uncrediblehallq.blogspot.com/2008/04/seven-things.html
Wow, what a mean woman.
“Religious” people read and worship a silly book all their lives yet they rarely live by it.
Sorry but going to court over a mandatory minute of silence strikes me as the most petty of things one could possibly complain about. You don’t have to be religious to appreciate the importance of being able to get potentially over-excited children to calm down, breath properly and get back under control.
If this is the kind of stuff you think is important enough to go to court over then you really don’t have that much to complain about do you?
[...] destroys Illinois, says judge. Friendly Atheist ? It’s Dangerous for Children To Know Atheism Exists, Says Illinois State Leg… here’s the exchange. Davis: I don?t know what you have against God, but some of us don?t have [...]
There’s a great piece in Russ Kick’s “Everything You Know About God is Wrong” about how the bullshit that Davis spews is exactly against what the American state is (as it was intended by the founding fathers).
Also, Chris, I really think you ought to look up the definition of the word “meme.” (I really hate it when people use the word “meme” to mean “something that spreads on the Interweb” - a more appropriate term is “chain letter”, or in this case “chain blog”.)
The Rosa Parks reference was probably to the end of the clip, where the Representative told Rob Sherman to ‘get out of that seat.’ I don’t know if she was kicking him out of the room or the session or what, but it definitely seemed like she was trying to kick him out of something.
As Christianity dies, those that remain - those who have backed themselves into the worst possible corner, and who’s psyches render them incapable of eating crow - are likely to be the most infused with Christian Love(TM) that any of us have ever seen.
Wow. How horrid.
But, I can sort of see what he is saying. In middle school I became agnostic (and a bit later on an atheist). The reason I did not convert before that? I never actually realized atheists and agnostics existed. Not believing in god had not occured to me as an option. But, as soon as a realized nontheists existed, I realized I was one of them.
Where in the world does he get the idea that it is dangerous for kids to know atheism exists?
IMHO, it is more dangerous for them to know religion exists.
Here is her email addy
mdavis@hdsmail.state.il.us
Be sure to let her know your thoughts.
Owen
Actually, I would believe what he said. This kind of thing is happening more and more.
The theists think that it’s dangerous for kids to even know that atheism even exists because it can plant seeds of doubt. And as theists know very well, if you can what the kids learn about, you can control their viewpoints. It’s a survival mechanism for their religion, don’t let the kids learn about anything else or they might *gasp* have to think for themselves and make informed decisions.
Rep. Monique Davis seems to be an idiot. Why isn’t he fighting guns in school? Last time I checked their wasn’t a law requiring students to carry guns in school. I’m pretty sure students aren’t supposed to have guns in school.
Talking about dangerous, destructive philosophies; guess which church this person goes to, which pastor is congratulated on his retirement in a resolution she introduced. You guessed Wright? Right! It seems that this person goes to Trinity, where the pastors are slightly more racist than usual.
“consider what the outcry would have been if a lawmaker had launched a similar attack on the beliefs of a religious person.”
Here’s a quick-and-dirty rewrite of Davis’ remarks:
I don’t understand your obsession with God, but some of us don’t have so much faith. We don’t all necessarily feel that what we experience in this life are His blessings. It’s really a tragedy — it’s tragic — when a person who is engaged in anything related to God, they want to fight. They want mandatory prayer in school.
I don’t see you fighting to teach critical thinking or the scientific method in school. You know?
I’m trying to understand the religion that you want to spread in this state. This is the State, separate from church and God, where people believe in protecting their children. What you have to spew and spread is extremely dangerous.
It’s dangerous to the progression of this state. And it’s dangerous for our children to even know that your religion exists!
You have no right to be here! We believe in something. You believe in destroying! You believe in destroying what this state was built upon.
[...] Wow, I didn’t realize how horribly dangerous we were. [...]
I just want to thank Davis for this public announcement that is sure to make atheism more interesting and provocative for the children of Chicago.
I find it interesting considering the fact that Lincoln, himself, was an atheist for most of his life.
Spirituality and the desire to believe in something higher than oneself is not harmful and can be quite inspiring at times. It is the organization of religion and the passing of judgment which should sicken us all. How many times does the Bible have to say it? Leave the judging to God! People were not created with free will and liberty to be shoved into these little belief boxes. We should be inspiring children to expand their knowledge of God and the entire universe. Do not hold your children back because you are afraid they will question your beliefs. You should question your beliefs and form new ideas. We should provide the path for kids and let them be the light. God is not the answer. He is only the beginning, and he is each of us.
Sam,
notice that it’s fair to say that parents are not arming their children but are stuffing their heads with illogical superstitions.
But more to the point, the argument that the state was built on religion is preposterous. It was created by the establishment of some artificial boundaries across land owned by native Americans. So, it would be a more sensible argument to say that the state was built on theft of lands.
Buffy, well said!!!
“Someone help me sharpen my logical fallacy detection, Would the topic brought up about guns in schools be a straw man?”
More like a red herring: the arguer is intentionally drawing some conclusion to distract from the actual situation at hand. Both are fallacies of [ir]relevance.
Actually, I don’t see anything wrong with a mandated moment of silence, as long as the law specified that the teacher could not demand anything but *silence.* The kids are then free to use it to mentally review for the test they are about to take, or speculate on what the teacher would look like without her clothes. If the school tries to require prayer, that’s another matter, although the best plaintiff in that case would not be an atheist, but a member of an out-of-favor cult.
Really? Obama’s fellow church members scare me. Maybe enough to sway my vote.
Yes, it is natural to believe that if an idea is omitted from the education of a child, it will cease to have any influence in their life. But what good is this in our world today. 200 years ago there was no fear of global warming, much different than today. Instead the fears of people were consumed by things like Heaven and Hell. Why not allow all ideas relative to our time and our world today be a factor in education? Atheism is a real belief, not an abomination to the beliefs of those who choose to believe in god.
It amazes me how these people will invoke the name of this country’s forefathers, yet have NO idea what those people stood for. She says that “this is the land of Lincoln where people believe in God”. However, Lincoln himself made many atheistic statements.
Abraham Lincoln
“The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.”
- Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).
Many of our founding fathers had very real issues with Christian dogma, and felt that it was a problem.
There is NO SUCH THING as an atheist. If you make an absolute statement that there is NO God, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this. This is like somebody making a statement that there is no gold in China. You would have to be everywhere at one time and know what is under every rock and in every area of the land, in every man’s home, inside of each person mouth etc. It would not be proveable! Don’t try to argue that you say there is no God because you cannot prove there is! You cannot make an absolute statement and try to rationalize it by using the negative argument. It does not hold up. At least admit that YOU DON’T KNOW and take your first step toward agnosticism. Only then will you become more rational and realize that having faith is something we all exhibit whether it be in God or anything else.
It’s MADNESS to let children know anything other then the creation story. Their tiny brains can’t take it. It’s Madness I tell you Madness! What a joke. http://www.madnessletters.com
Land of Lincoln?
Abraham Lincoln, the president that abolished slavery and saved America from dissolution, was a Deist. He believed that God basically leaves us to our own devices. IOW, a practical atheist.
How can she possibly invoke the name of Lincoln to contest atheism? Not only is it a fallacious appeal to authority, it’s an appeal to the wrong authority!
Interestingly, you cannot e-mail Ms. Davis because she refuses to provide her e-mail address to the public. (I just got off the phone with her office.) I plan to write her and send it via USPS. Her intolerance and ignorance cannot go unexcused.
Now that was… absolutely infuriating. Thank you for putting this up.
Athiests are too polite. People need to be reminded that god does not really exist and that all religions are cults based upon lies from time to time, before they become as stupid as this fellow.
Anyone who would say something like this, and those who applaud them, have incredibly weak faith in their own religion. Any person is a strong faith would simply say, “I disagree” rather than being threatened by a simple concept that is different than their own view of the world. If your rights aren’t being infringed upon, what does it matter what someone else thinks, religious or not?
Completely shocking. And from a Democrat! I’m ashamed.
yeah, Lincoln said some pretty disparaging stuff about christianity.
This is terrifying. The general public supports discrimination against atheists, it seems. That’s why we need more prominent people to speak out as atheists.
I thought the same thing, Derek.
“When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That’s my religion.”
Abraham Lincoln
Wow, this is really infuriating, I truly hate theists like this. Some theists
( you know, the ones who don’t force everything down your throats?) I can actually befriend and be happy with, but then theres the ones that shove their beliefs down your throat… ohh and to Sam, I believe this is a fear mongering argument ( I forget the rhetorical term) with a few straw man fallacies thrown in.
Precisely, but she is clearly one of their best. Hate and ignorance flow from her mouth very well!
It seems that everything she said had no bearing on the situation, was completely inappropriate, and utterly fallacious. I just wish some people would realize what a detriment their “views” are to the future of the HUMAN RACE. If we continue as a theist nation/world, we will undoubtedly encounter a future that is more terrible and real than any HELL described in any one of the hundreds of holy books at your local Barnes and Noble. Violent clashing b/t religions, a constant battle of “good and evil”, an unhealthy, poorly educated population that relies on dog’s “blessings”, an Earth depleted of the resources necessary to maintain such a self-serving society. Now that, my atheistic friends, will be the day that Jesus will NOT fly down on a cloud and condemn us to fire. But people will still look for him!
This, I believe, is the greatest threat to the human race, as it encompasses all of our worst nightmares into one ignorant, uninformed, but easily transmittable viewpoint that was created solely to keep a populus in check while giving one a false sense of hope for a future that will never come except in your wildest prayers.
Our hope lies in the minds of those who can see the whole picture, the whole cosmos, and from that understand that there is no life after death, only here and now. How can anyone profess to be educated yet still base their entire being on an imaginary friend? I don’t know, and I know you don’t either.
PS.
Let’s not sit back and let that stuff happen.
To be fair, the Illinois Constitution begins “We, the People of the State of Illinois - grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He has permitted us to enjoy and seeking His blessing upon our endeavors - …”
[...] to children? From Hemant Mehta of FriendlyAtheist.com: “It’s Dangerous for Children To Know Atheism Exists, Says Illinois State Legislator“ According to said legislator’s angry diatribe in an exchange with outspoken atheist [...]
This woman is DANGEROUS and IGNORANT. From the perspective of someone from overseas looking in she does nothing for America’s image. But then that’s what religion does, does it not - discourages LEARNING in favour of FAITH. It’s certainly worked well on her!
Their is this underlying principle in America that is quite recurring in a manifold of “controversial” issues that seems ancient and rather primitive to me. This principle is evidenced by a consistent disregard for the individual to decide what is best for him or herself. It’s a blatant contradiction to the “individualistic” nation that America prides itself on being, and yet…no one really seems to notice this obvious fact nor care, and instead we use competition via debating various viewpoints to represent a false individuality. The belief that children are born as sinful creatures who must be “straightened out” by adults and religion is absurd in modern day, and yet it seems almost to be a principle in justifying why children should not be exposed to atheism. It is my firm belief that nothing should ever be hidden or undisclosed; it’s not fair to the individual. No upbringing or education should be too exclusive. We should — especially at this point in time, or even BY NOW — be teaching a well-rounded curriculum and providing an upbringing for our children that exposes them to a wide array of options for beliefs with only the necessary perimeters. And…anyway, I think that it is natural, knowing the concept of a god, for a child to eventually conjure and question the concept of a non-god. And what does Ms. Davis suppose that we tell our children then? It’s absolutely absurd; it’s an insult to the individual as an entity capable of original thought.
I don’t normally link to my own work, but I think this comic says it best:
Input Out
oh, man… don’t tell her that lincoln was NOT a xtian. her head will explode! i suppose nothing will come out, though.
btw, other historical figures who were NOT xtian: washington, adams, quincy adams, jefferson, franklin, madison.
…to name a few.
Wow…. I can’t believe I just read what I read.
My brain hurts now.
We believe in destroying?
The last time I saw the definition of an Athiest (I am one) is that we didn’t believe in anything
But I guess by her definition.. we believe in something, and that is.. destroying.
What a tool. Lol
Sorry but going to court over a mandatory minute of silence strikes me as the most petty of things one could possibly complain about. You don’t have to be religious to appreciate the importance of being able to get potentially over-excited children to calm down, breath properly and get back under control.
If this is the kind of stuff you think is important enough to go to court over then you really don’t have that much to complain about do you?
Sam, no matter what they call these “moments of silence” the intent behind them is always religious in nature. They are meant to sneak prayer/religion into the schools. The easiest way to know this is 1. Look to see who sponsors the bills to put them into the schools (always religious individuals). 2. Listen to who screams loudest when anybody demands they be taken out of the schools (always religious individuals).
Stacey said:
Not one atheist claims that. Please go learn something about atheism.
Stacy,
How can you say there is no such thing as an atheist? Are you saying you are a-atheistic? If you make an absolute statement that there are no atheists, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this.
Are you unaware that most atheists do not actually say “there is no God” but instead “I don’t believe in god(s)”. There’s a distinction there, and that’s what makes the difference between a weak/implicit/agnostic atheist and a strong/explicit atheist.
This might help clarify matters a bit.
http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutatheism/p/atheism101.htm
The funniest thing about this whole thing is that she actually thinks God wants her to say these things. She is doing this, so she has been told on Sundays in an Illinois church, for His will. Thats a great way to exercise mental sloth, which I’m afraid is all too common throughout the American demographic.
She no longer has to explore other points of view, her brain activity decreases, and she becomes a monster of god’s will. How scary, she holds public office in America? Oh, wait, theres a lot of idiots in this country.
Religion all too often leads to a perspective that inhibits the advancement of a person in all aspects of life. Sucks for them. I find myself getting angry, but then I just feel bad cause what a waste.
If one is to Love god, truly love your imaginary friend, you develop an addiction. It has been scientifically validated that the processes in the brain while in love directly mirrors the effects of cocaine usage. What a great way to create a bunch of SHEEP; a self-sustaining addiction that’s FREE (unless you are a christian, scientologist, etc.) and spreads like a disease.
[...] Feel free to read up on Illinois State Representative Monique Davis has to say about atheism. [...]
Stacy the Ray Comfort quoter said:
Stacy,
If you make an absolute statement that there is no such thing as an atheist, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this.
Unless you can look inside the brains of every single human being on the planet, and understand their reasoning exactly perfectly, there is no way you can make the absolute statement that there is no such thing as an atheist.
You merely have FAITH there is no such thing as an atheist. I on the other hand, AM an atheist, and therefore I have first-hand understanding of my belief in atheists, and do not need faith in the existence or non-existence of atheists.
As you yourself wrote: you cannot make an absolute statement and try to rationalize it by using the negative argument. It does not hold up.
In other words, it doesn’t take faith to believe that atheists exist. You, however, have faith that we do not. That’s a very strange belief-system you have there. In order for you to assert what you assert, you’d have to be able to look inside my mind.
At least admit that you don’t know and take your first step toward atheist-agnosticism.
Cheers, and may you find the peace and truth you seek, friend. Most of us here have taken a long journey to find ourselves at the place we are today. Many of us here once believed as you believe. Seek to learn about our journeys before you condemn us. Jesus himself would do no less.
If you wish to let Rep. Davis know how you feel about her bigotry, you can find her email at http://www.votesmart.org/bio.php?can_id=6317
Owen, thanks for the email address. I was happy to let the willfully ignorant representative of ‘The Land of Lincoln’ know how I felt. I’m sure it will go unread, but it made me feel a little better.
Stacey… I’m an atheist. I’m real. I just pinched myself, so I know it’s true. It’s like people I know who ask “Don’t you believe in the Bible?” Of course I have to say “I do believe in it! I’ve SEEN one!”
Flonkbob
[...] It’s dangerous for children to know atheism exists, says Illinois state legislator. [...]
Land of Lincoln? Maybe someone should inform this woman that Honest Abe wasn’t a Christian.
It’s dangerous to know atheism! Take this.
Siamang/Buffy (and anybody else),
First of all it was not Ray Comfort, it was Kirk Cameron. What difference does it make? If it was gold in China or pink and purple Cadillacs the fact still remains that if you make a definite statement that there is no God, then you should be able to prove it. I do know many atheists who say there is no god(s)/God or don’t beleive in god(s)/God. How are you doing to say that you don’t believe in god(s)/God but say that you are not saying there is no god(s)/God? If you say that you do not believe in deity (i.e. denying His existence), how is that any different from saying “there in no god(s)/God?”
Next, Siamang you obviously don’t realize that absolute true truth DOES exist. I never said it did not. I only said that you cannot make THAT absolute statement of there being no God, as that is NOT a universal truth. 2+2=4 is an absolute statement of truth that can be made. A (not, against) theism (God) intrinsically is a position, belief or affirmation that there is no God.
Kneel before Zod!
Oh, and Rep. Davis is a Twit.
I’m saying that nobody proved any gods exist, so I’m not going to worship that which I suspect is the figment of Ray Comfort’s imagination.
As I said before, our paths are different than yours. And we find ourselves at a different place in our journeys than you find yourself at this time in your journey.
Right now, and with your attitude, you sound like a streetcorner zealot, and incidentally nothing like Jesus, a person who by most accounts was a thoughtful listener who attempted to meet people where they were in their journey.
Join us here, and listen to us. Learn our stories before you damn us, as Comfort has, as fools.
Well do you deny THE GREAT FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER (praised be his name)? It takes faith to deny his existence, right?
Stacey….
Well! Kirk Cameron. That makes ALL the difference.
Atheists say there is no proof of god. There IS NO PROOF that god exists. None. And if you’re going to make the claim for god then you have to give the proof for god. Otherwise it’s the same as Russell’s Teapot. Your belief does not make anything true.
Finally, as Carl Sagan said “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Is there any more extraordinary claim than an Ultimate Being?
Lincoln, Illinois???
I have always thought that we all should think free about the life. The parents who wouldn’t allow their childrens to think for their self about life and what it means are stopping their childrens to understand about life. To me it shows a very small confidence about what science has found out since the religion dogma stopped people thinking free.
Stacey, you’ve convinced me! I now believe in Thor! Thanks so much for opening my eyes. Excuse me, I have a sacrifice to make now….
Bigoted Illinois Representative Blows Up at Separation of Church and State…
You may remember atheist activist Rob Sherman from the Illinois moment of silence controversy I blogged about way back when. Fresh from victory on that score, Sherman has most recently been challenging some shady grants to a church and school by the s…
Flankbob,
You say there is NO proof that God exists. Where is the proof? This goes back to my original statement of an absolute claim. Then you try to prove your position by stating the negative. Well, you can’t prove there is a God, so there isn’t… Come on now…you and I and everybody else know, that is NOT proof. Try that in a court of law.
Siamang,
Stacy,
I’m not the one making a claim for something. You’re trying to twist it to fit your agenda, but the fact remains I don’t have any reason to believe anything without proof. Anyone who posits a god is the one with a claim. The burden of proof is on the theist, not the atheist. I refuse to accept that burden for you.
And YOU try going into a court of law and claiming “You murdered that man. I just KNOW it’s true! It’s up to you to prove you didn’t.” Wrong. It’s up to the one with the claim to prove that claim. There. Is. No. Proof.
If you have some, I’m listening.
Stacey said,
You might want to consider taking a basic logic course to keep you from embarrassing yourself with statements like this. Most community colleges have them, it would be worth your while.
The burden of proof is on the one who asserts the positive - you prove a god exists, if you can. But please, NOT HERE, that’s NOT what this blog is for. Feel free to get your own blog to preach from.
“This is what our state is built upon”
Does anyone find it frightening that elected officials seem to have the least knowledge about the fundamental tenets of U.S. Constitution? The ideas that actually went behind the founding of this country?
We need to stop voting for people like this.
Unless, Stacey, you have a proof we haven’t heard a hundred times already? In that case, bring it on! But first, please go back and read all the old posts to see what we have already before, so we don’t have to demolish the same arguments for what feels like the zillionth time.
Sorry, the server wouldn’t let me finish my previous post in edit mode. I miss the live preview feature, I wish that still worked.
What the fuck? I am so disgusted I’m having trouble articulating it. I guess the only thing I can say is that, it is fundamentally unhealthy to need to believe in unseen mystical consciousnesses or forces to the degree that you actually fear others not believing it too. This sounds to me like the symptom of someone who has a sense that what they are doing is wrong so they try to peer pressure those in proximity to do it to so that it seems less bad or absurd. I don’t need to explain my reality or universe with anything other than logic, physic, and the scientific method. Figuring out the incredible majesty and complexity of nature is enough for me, it needs no spiritual ornament to make it compelling. I simply do not need to believe in mysticism and superstition to find reality fulfilling. In addition I would add that it is insulting and ignorant to assume that religion has a monopoly on morality. I feel fierce loyalty to justice, the public good, fairness, progress, order, and freedom. I live by the rule that I should treat others as I would like to be treated. In my social decision making process I always attempt to select the most harmonious course of action, and not because I believe in some supernatural being that will punish or reward me, or that expects something. I act this way, and believe this way, because it is an evolutionary imperative. Man is a social creature who works in groups, and thrives in groups. Behaving in a way that maintains a spirit of cooperation and order is beneficial to all partners and allows them to achieve more than they could were they isolated. So it is LOGICAL to be MORAL in a society.
Like it or not, this is a country founded by christians, hence the god reference on our money.. I’m surprised everyone is so blown away by this sort of thing, you live in a christian country for gods sake! (pun intended because i enjoy puns :D)
On another note, why do christians often sound so psychotic, it totally goes against the teachings of christ haha they scare me
ps the comments about theists wanting to hide alternate views is completely wrong. one moron spouting ignorance does not mean all theists think this way. Many are very critical thinkers, they have to be when everyone questions their beliefs. I’ve had many a good conversation with theists.
You can’t prove that God does not exist. Like you can’t prove that there is no Santa Claus. Some believe in Santa Claus - some not
Stacy:
First of all, I want to thank you for posting here! Your views conflict with most of the inhabitants of this comment-thread. And whenever conflicting views are present, discussion is bound to happen, and in my opinion, it’s always a good thing to have reasoned discussion. So I’m glad you’re here.
(Plus it allows us atheists to hone our deadly blades of logic
)
In response to what you have said regarding the existance/non-existance of god, you are claiming that “Because we cannot know for 100% certain that no god exists, there must be a god”. This is (as has been pointed out a few times) a logical fallacy, as it relies upon the Burden of Proof (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof ).
Since you are asserting the existence of something, the burden of proof falls upon you. (Otherwise, if the burden of proof was on the person asserting the non-existence of something, everything would have to be proved to not-exist: For example, if the burden of proof was on people to disprove things, everything from flat-earths to unicorns to aliens would have to be exhaustively disproved, a process that would essentially take forever and therefore is not worth talking about).
What this all boils down to is that it is not the burden of the atheist to prove that god does not exist, it is the burden of proof of the theist to prove that god exists.
Regardless of the actual existence/non-existence of god, Atheists are not saying: “there is absolutely no god”. They are saying “I have no proof of a god, hence, I don’t believe in him/her/it”. For example, you yourself are an atheist if you don’t believe in Thor, greek god of thunder. You don’t believe in Thor because you have no proof he exists, hence, you are a “Thor-atheist”. (With regards to Burden of Proof again, you would then have to go about proving that he doesn’t exist if you claimed he didn’t. Fortunately for you, you don’t have to go about proving the pantheon of gods don’t exist because the burden of proof is not on you in this case - it’s on the person asserting the existence of these gods.)
As atheists, we just go one more god past Thor and the others. We believe in 0 gods, while you believe in 1.
In conclusion, the burden of proof of god is on the person asserting the existence of god, and besides atheists don’t believe there is a god - gods actual existence or non-existence is pretty meaningless to us.
I hope you continue to question Stacy. Through questions come answers, and understanding. Nothing good can come from not asking questions.
Flonkbob, while yes there is no proof of the existence of God, the converse is also true: there is no proof of Gods non-existence. And by God here, I’m not talking about say the Christian God in particular, I’m making a statement about a generic higher power that exists outside of our space-time, and since until we fully understand the Laws which govern our own space-time, we cannot begin to show what God is like should he exist since we have no Laws and reality with which to compare it with.
Also, any comparison Stacy or Flonkbob to a court of law is ridiculous since in a court of law, the whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing is there to prevent a miscarriage of justice and not ruin someone’s life, so there, the burden is on the one with the claim to prove its claim and not the defendent (unless the prosecutors do offer evidence in which case the defendent would be stupid not to offer their evidence). However with a proof/disproof of God, no such ruination of lives can happen so if someone contends that for 100% definite there is a God or there isn’t one then they need to show why if questioned.
There is nothing in science so far that has proven or disproven a creator’s existence. Just because the Bible isn’t accurate (we know that the Big Bang and Evolution are what have happened not Genesis) doesn’t mean that a creator didn’t set the universe off with the Big Bang and told the universe to follow the laws of physics. That’s my personal belief that there is a creator but not involved with the universe’s goings on since the Big Bang but its not proven so I could be absolutely wrong. However at the present moment there is ROOM for God in science but not a NEED for him/her/it/whatever. God could be a table for all we know! Or there might be no God.
As I said its my belief that there is some sort of God outside space-time but its just my guess, with the non-existence of any evidence to the contrary or even for it the reason why I hold such a belief. If one day I’m offered proof of God’s existence or non-existence, I’ll do my best to understand it (its likely to be pretty hefty going!) and then back it with the uttermost passion.
Holy crap! She’s right! Why isn’t this Sherman character fighting the much more important battle involving the “Mandatory bring a gun to school” legislation that was recently pa…oh…wait…
I seem to recall another Sherman who went up against a Davis, and one can only hope history repeats itself here.
Absolutely staggering.
Thanks for the information, seriously. We need more people holding others accountable, on all sides of the debate.
Stacey ——-
there aint no god, we come to this conclusion because we studied science to find out answers to our our fractured faith. you will realise too its all bullshit.
do u know what a partical is? can you try and imagen how big the universe is - i struggle. could you understand the latest answer to universal unification the string theory? if you havent looked you have no business defending a magic man with a beard in the clouds. you spend all your time Hopeing, while the rest of us spend it THINKING.—because of this, theres more chance of my athiest answer being more accurate than yours. plus, your anologys suck.
A whole lot of people in America find comfort in being told what to do and simply following tradition. To them, thinking for yourself and taking responsibility to figure out what’s right and what’s wrong, is a recipe for chaos. To imagine or be confronted by people who aren’t held by such fascist constraints is their worst fear.
People, get a life. You put these people in office. You have to live with the consequences. If you are unhappy with the level of thinking exhibited by your elected officials, then perhaps you should look further afield for electable candidates.
John said “Not one atheist claims that. Please go learn something about atheism.”
I make that statement and if there was a large group of people who believed in the Flying Spagetti monster or whatever else I’d make the same statement to them. My position is not agnostic because there is no testable evidence for any deity, no evidence and no theory means the idea has a value of zero so I can happily state that ‘God’ does not exist, there is no evidence to suggest I need to weakly waver.
As for the article all I can say is that I am glad I do not live in the United States, I would fine the creeping religious lobby intolerable.
Oh on the issue above it seems to be about this legislation to make prayer mandatory for the schools over there. That seems stupid, its your choice if you wish to pray or not.
However I don’t get what the women was saying about keeping the church(es) for historical reasons. Thats fair enough but is someone trying to remove the actual church(es) themselves? I would like to know.
Still comparing this issue to standing against guns in school, erm guns are illegal for children surely so why need to take a stand in that respect? Making a stand there doesn’t require a change in law whereas standing against this bill would do if it came through.
I see no bill to legalize guns in schools, although I’m British so maybe I haven’t looked deep enough into this American issue.
I have family that are dellusional “christians”! Catholisism is a tyranical cult, like Islam. I think christian = hypocrite and fear monger. Some of them don’t practice what they read. They like to pick and choose passages that suits them for which ever occasion. I have read the bible! Just cuz i want to know exactly what i’m criticizing .It has some interesting messages and ideas, but you shouldn’t base a government around it and trick people into it. Religion is the best mind control ever created.